Rafael Grossi: From the Zero Line to His Bid for UN Chief

Rafael Grossi, Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), and candidate to become the next secretary-general of the United Nations, recently dropped by The Delegates Lounge podcast (technically, recorded in UNHQ's East Lounge). He was in New York for the start of the review conference of the parties to the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons (NPT), which ended on May 22, 2026. The previous week, he'd had his turn in the SG race spotlight, answering questions posed by the world's diplomats here. During the weekend in between, he was in Ukraine to mark the 40th anniversary of the nuclear power plant meltdown in Chornobyl. 

In a candid, exclusive half-hour interview, we spoke about a drone strike damaging Chornobyl's protective structure and other grave risks posed to nuclear safety. We pivoted to artificial intelligence governance and maritime security and discussed how his experience in his current role would impact his approach to these vital spheres of international security should he be elected as the 10th secretary-general, who will succeed UN Secretary-General António Guterres in January.

This interview was recorded on April 29, 2026. Since then, a fifth candidate for secretary-general has joined the race.

Speakers:

J. Alex Tarquinio (host) is a resident correspondent at the United Nations in New York and co-founder of The Delegates Lounge® podcast. @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X and @thedelegateslounge on Instagram.

Rafael Grossi (guest) is an Argentine diplomat. He has been serving as Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) since December 2019. He was formerly the Argentine ambassador to Austria, concurrent with Slovenia, Slovakia and International Organizations based in Vienna, from 2013 to 2019. @rafaelmgrossi of @IAEAorg on X and @grossirafaelmariano of @iaeaorg on Instagram.

References:

Read our host’s analysis of the race for the next secretary-general of the United Nations in Foreign Policy at:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2026/04/22/un-secretary-general-race-guterres-candidate-questions-dialogues/

Subscribe to our YouTube channel, where you can watch episodes with photos, maps, and graphics, at:

https://www.youtube.com/@TheDelegatesLounge

Cover Photo Credit: 

Rafael Grossi briefing reporters at UNHQ on October 27, 2022: UN Photo/Manuel Elías

Transcript

Cold Open And Context

SPEAKER_01 0:48

This was a gift to the union by the Soviet Union in 1990. It's made from this. It's me. The end of the cold war. Because it's very good. The unit is meeting this place. We are learning for the agency. We have a very special innocent. With the linguistic. The director general of the Intelligent Energy Agency. With one called Interactive, with four current candidates to replace Secretary General and Tony of the Lieutenant in January took questions individually for the world's diplomats here. In between those meetings and the NPT meeting today, the Director General was in Kyiv to mark the 40th anniversary of the Chernobyl catastrophe. And that's how we began our conversation.

Chernobyl Return And Wartime Risks

SPEAKER_01 2:04

Director General, thank you so much for joining us on the Delegates Lounge.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Well, you were just in Kiev for the anniversary, uh the 40th anniversary of the Chernobyl disaster. On Sunday. Yeah, I did look at the schedule and I was like, how could he be there on Sunday to hear about Monday?

SPEAKER_04 2:25

We're in Kiev and Chernobyl, and then uh we made it back here uh back to the DTU and to see.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Definitely. Um, but while you were in Kyiv, you also handed over. My understanding is it's a fairly unique um new methodology for handling nuclear reactors in wartime. Can you talk a little bit about that and also explain how um you in your in your current role can work with uh the five permanent members of the Security Council on this? I mean, given that one of the B5 is uh involved in this conflict, obviously, and um is the one threatening these reactors. How do you work with the new methodology and uh the current Security Council?

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Well indeed. Many things in the in that in that question. I will try to address them all. Uh first, yes, I was I was in Kiev and I was also in Chernobyl uh for these commemorations, 40 years uh from the uh accident there. But we were not there simply for a commemoration, important as this may be. We were there uh to uh continue the work that the IEA has been doing there since uh February 2022, when the the armed conflict of war uh between the Russian Federation and Ukraine started, which had the this unique feature of having um uh nuclear facilities being uh part of that, notably Saporizia nuclear power plant and Chernobyl as well. Sometimes people forget that Chernobyl was also occupied site in the beginning of the war for more than one month, and then the Russian troops with unilaterally withdrew from from there. So um we were there uh basically I was you know uh meeting with President Zelensky and the Prime Minister and the Energy Minister Michal um and and and many people there, uh G7 ministers as well that were there because of two things. One you mentioned, but the one I would like to start with is a different one, because uh we are uh uh uh concerned and and trying to work on the repair of the safety containment building, which was built and put in place just a few years ago to uh cover the uh sarcophagus that was built at the time of the accident. Uh you know, dealing with this um, you know, um molecule debris uh that that is still there requires complete isolation. And so this this old sarcophagus that was built in record time, actually, uh by those famous, as they call them, liquidators that courageously worked there, and and and some of them died because of uh uh exposure to radiation. So that was built there, and of course, with the passage of time four years, and in those conditions, uh it is degrading very quickly. So this big building was put uh in the course of the war, uh, February 2025. There was an impact um uh by a drone that uh of course um affected the uh containment, the isolation function, and it it it is quite quite a big damage. So the IEA uh obviously has been involved making uh technical assessments of the situation. We provided uh the Ukrainian government with a comprehensive report uh late last year, and we needed to be there. We're working with the European Bank for uh reconstruction and development, the EBRD, which is going to be financing for most of that that part. So that is one thing, the repair of this containment building. But the other thing is and very important, is uh this methodology that our technical experts have uh prepared um which uh have to do with the uh nexus power between the electrical substations and the nuclear power plants. You know that nuclear power plants produce energy, a lot of it, but it they also need energy to uh assure the lots of functions, the industrial functions, including uh the cooling and and other things. And of course, in the course of the war, uh there is a lot of pressure uh on the uh energy infrastructure of the country, which leads quite often to interruptions and and uh shutdowns and and and uh uh blackouts um from these substations. And this creates it's like at home where you have a uh uh uh loss of power, and then you know, all of a sudden power comes back, and maybe your microwave or your TV or your stereo, I don't know, people don't use those things anymore. But in the old days, you know, you can have a problem because of the abrupt uh uh uh ingress of uh electricity. So that requires a lot of fine-tuning, if I can put it like that, from the operators to make sure that these transients, as they are called in the jargon, do not affect the so it's it's it's tech highly technical. What I'm expecting, I explained to you, so I'm sorry for that, but it is very important. Why? Because uh these nuclear power plants, nine of them, they used to have 15 with six uh reactors in Saporesia. These nuclear power plants are providing more than 60 percent of the energy that Ukraine has now, because the whole you know uh uh thermal nuclear and uh even hydro um and dams has been have been uh affected or destroyed or partially destroyed. So this is really the lifeline of the country. You can imagine without it's it's more than 60 percent of the energy. So it's very, very important uh that we support them so that they can operate uh this plant uh safely in this very uh say unstable circumstances. So this is what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Very, very important. And uh there clearly are ongoing risks, obviously, and zaporizia. So as you said, it was not just a commemoration.

SPEAKER_03 9:12

Yeah.

AI Governance Beyond Inspections

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Um I also wanted to ask you about artificial intelligence, because there are some parallels between nuclear technology and AI. Uh notably that they can both uh produce uh tremendous benefits for society, but also have very grave risks. Even if you put aside the most extreme sci-fi risk of AI, that it somehow replaces us, there are intermediate risks that it can be used in bad ways in warfare and uh and uh terrorism and such. So so uh the the UN has begun looking at this, uh, but as you are currently a candidate uh for Secretary General, I wondered if you could talk a bit about how your current role would influence uh your approach to AI should you be.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

Indeed, because in my current role, in two ways, in my current role, we deal and we use a lot of artificial intelligence. Uh I think we all do, knowingly or unknowingly, in our smartphones, in our banking, in everything we do, in our academic research, in everything we do. So it is not like a theoretical proposition, it's something that is there and it's giving us lots of advantages and improving our lives. Of course, like any technology, uh there could be uh consequences if if the technology is not used for the good. And I think that applies to anything, that applies to chemistry, that applies to you know um pharmacy or medicine. So, you know, I don't want to reduce that the sense of concern there, but I think there has to be a little bit more perspective um into it. So in our current role, we use it a lot, we do have lots of guardrails and and of course um uh guidelines and preventive measures. Um many, I don't know if you are aware, have even uh used the parallel or the analogy of the IEA to say that there should be an IEA for AI. And um you might be surprised that I, unlike what people may feel, uh I I don't think the IEA would be um uh a model to follow. It could be, it could be, in the sense that it is the only multilateral organization historically that has been dealing with a highly sophisticated technological activity and has come up with a way to check it efficiently. But what I have been pointing out when when colleagues of yours and some people in panels ask me this, I've been telling them that there is a huge difference with between an intangible, basically an intangible, of course, there is a physical uh base for AI, uh, but an activity that is far more behavioral than nuclear, where you have nuclear material that you can account for, a material balance that you can uh calculate, facilities that you can visit, and so on. So uh I have been worrying, uh flattering as it may be, that they think about us or the IEEE as the model that AI is something different. So I believe that I am familiar with the efforts uh that have been undertaken uh here. Um I know that, for example, uh ITU and DG there who uh uh has visited me, uh, is is working on a project on AI for good or good AI, and we have been collaborating. I think it's very good that that we do that. Uh uh turning to the other part, what you say, what would you do with that? And that I think connects nicely with the idea of a UN that I have in mind, which is one that would be really working with those who drive the technology. A top-down um uh normative um approach is not going to work in when it comes to AI. And we need something that would give the confidence that we all want to have that this is going to be used only for good. And that would require to have the private sector, the companies, those who really are uh driving this activity as a part, as an integral part of the effort. And and this is something I don't see yet. There are you know panels and conversations like this. So I I I believe in a UN that is really intertwined and connected with the real world. And and and it's not you know taking approaches that are uh overnovative or declaratory, and which end up and you know, unfortunately, having little impact on the reality.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Um, yeah, AI for good. That slogan is um always reminded me a bit of the old slogan of Adams for Peace, the idea of directing the energy of people working in this field towards the better solutions.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

So it sounds like you think uh the UN certainly has a role to play in the future of directing AI, uh, but not exactly the same role you have with the IAEA, which is you noted is more about physical inspections.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Yeah, well when you when you are familiar with AI, how it's developed, how the algorithmic dynamics uh operate in the world, uh you immediately realize that uh pretending to have an inspectorate for AI is an illusion. And not only an illusion, it's a bad illusion. Uh so there are other ways to uh to deal with this. Well one should not uh you know um uh put unnecessary checks at the same time, we need certain um understandings, certain basic understandings. Those things can be done, and I think in the corporate world, uh and I've been in touch with some of the uh leaders in this industry, you know, in my current activity, because there's a lot of interest uh for new nuclear, for SMRs, I think small molecular reactors for naval uh propulsion. There's a lot of interaction with them, and I see a lot of uh good, a lot of good intention, and of course commercial interest, and there's nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. Um uh so the conversation perhaps should be a conversation based more on a comparative approach than on a, as I said, top-down, heavy, normative uh approach. Uh being pessimistic or uh uh you know overworried about it. Of course, technology per se is neutral. And and and and I I think uh uh have a good understanding of technology. I come from an organization that is uh profoundly technological, among other things, of course. So it's an important theme. Thank you for you know mentioning it.

Maritime Security And The Shadow Fleet

SPEAKER_01 16:35

Um well, you mentioned NABAL, uh, of course, there's another regulator within the UN system, the IMO. Um but you do work with them on the transportation of nuclear materials, correct? Yeah, so you're very familiar with the IMO's workings. And uh, you're here for the MPT this week. By coincidence, there's also a high-level week going on with maritime security, uh big, big topic now with the Strait of World News. Uh and it's been a big topic for a while now, also with um with the Shadow Fleet. Um, should you be successful and be the next Secretary General? What would be your approach to the IMO and particularly also looking at the Shadow Fleet and the grave risks that are caused by the US?

SPEAKER_04 17:15

Well, uh cooperation among uh international organizations is something that is uh uh not at the level it should be uh from the UN side. Uh there is a lot of uh uh cacophony without proper coordination. In my current role, we do have very intense cooperation with IMO, uh, because apart from what you are mentioning now uh and maritime security and the issues that we see today related to the strait and the war, there are uh many things. For example, there is uh uh a trend, and we are seeing already uh uh a keen interest in the shipping industry for nuclear, because as you know, uh this is uh an uh naval commercial shipping is responsible for alone for eight percent of global emissions. You know, look at this. It's just a subsector in the transportation sector, and it is almost 10% of the global. So this industry, very responsibly, I would say, they themselves are looking into ways to um you know um have their industry be powered in a different way. And and after lots of analysis of different uh alternatives, uh they are converging into um nuclear because you know, after all, we have been operating nuclear reactors in the water for many, many years, militarily, of course. But we know that we as humankind we know how to put a small reactor on a vessel, be it a submarine or whatever, and operate it. So there is a big trend, and we are working already with the shipping industry uh all over the world, uh, and the IMO, because they have the codes and uh um many normative uh injunctions that um are being reviewed. So we work with them uh in a very uh constructive way, I would say. Uh in terms of what is happening these days, of course, there is uh an issue uh related to uh technical norms and provisions that might need to be adjusted, we we will see. But it's basically related to a war. And this is the issue that it is.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Well, there are two things, because the the problems with the shadow fleet and the sort of um, shall we say, unregulated or flag hopping and all of that. I mean, would you do you think the UN should be more aggressive uh pursuing those practices, turning off your transponders, ship-to-ship well, ship-to-ship transfers are technically legal, but doing that to evade certain regulations. Uh should the UN be more assertive there?

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Well, uh I I think IMO has a mandate on all these things, and uh I think it's a matter of enforcement, more than of course, there might be uh a need to uh to have new norms. We unfortunately we learn a lot after wars and and in nuclear as well, after accidents. We sometimes we we react after the fact um uh when it comes to uh regulation and conventions and so

Iran Nuclear Talks And Verification

SPEAKER_04 20:34

forth. So we will see.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Now you mentioned that uh the Strait of Hammuz obviously is related to a war, uh, and that war is obviously related to Iran's nuclear program. Yeah. Um You mentioned actually, not with the onset of this war, but the 12-day bombing campaign last summer. I remember you saying uh that this knowledge of nuclear technology cannot be bombed away. Uh how do you think it should be managed?

SPEAKER_04 21:04

Well, uh, I think there is a combination of things here. One is the ongoing negotiation. I think we all aspire for peace as soon as possible. Comprehensive peace, uh lasting peace. Um, and uh this is why I think we must support the process, which is which is ongoing. I mean, you you can have different processes, different actors are on the table, but when there is something, I think it deserves uh support. So I hope that the Islamabad process will be a successful one. Here it's a complex one, nuclear being, if you want a Gaza Bellai, what triggers the whole thing, but it's not the only thing. We were just discussing the strait and and freedom of navigation, water international waterways, which is very important. But there are other things like the ballistic capabilities that uh Iran has. There are also there's also the relationship between uh um non state actors and armed groups like Hamas. Hezbollah and their regional activities. So all and the nuclear. And the nuclear. So all of that has to, in a certain sense, move uh, if not in a synchronic perfect synchronicity, there has to be progress in all of those fronts. Otherwise, you will have uh uh an irregular um uh polygon and it's not going to work. You know, so uh for the nuclear, I think there are a number of issues that are be discussed. We have been supporting that negotiation, the previous one that ended in February, and uh we hope that we are going to be able to support this one because, of course, what you need is an agreement that is verifiable. Uh without that, this is not uh really going to work.

Security Council Reform And Representation

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Now, um, I would be remiss if I did not ask you as a candidate for Secretary General some of the you know hot button issues that people need to uh answer. And uh I think the first one really is that as a candidate nominated by your home country, Argentina, uh, you do carry some of the weight of the aspirations of the global south to have more permanent seats on the Security Council or to have uh, well, any for Latin America and Africa. Uh, do you feel that those should be created? And if so, how, given the roadblock of the people.

SPEAKER_04 23:25

Well, I think we need to understand one thing, which is very important. Nobody expects the Secretary General to come with a magic wand and have a formula, touch everybody at the Security Council hall, and then have a rearrangement. We need to be knowledge uh knowledgeable of history, how the current configuration came about after a cataclysmic uh um global war that uh uh uh allowed certain arrangements to crystallize in the way they do. I don't think anybody challenges, even those uh having permanent membership, that the world has changed, the world has evolved. And all of that, I think, on the diagnostic, that is a common understanding. The issue here is how to move from there to something uh different, and this is something that is in the hands of member states um very clearly, very clearly. Uh so consensus on on that is not impossible, but it will depend on uh a number of uh concessions that will have to be made, because there are, of course, uh competing aspirations. And you can have and and uh in the 20 plus years of of this process, and we have an uh an intergovernmental negotiation which is going on. There have been so many formulae, criteria, uh, and it's not an easy task. The the SG can be a facilitator, uh should never be an obstacle for the process. Um but uh I think it is very clear to recognize that this is a matter that uh member states need to uh agree on. And the SG should be, yes, a facilitator, somebody who is there to put oil rather than sand on the wheels.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yes, so you're not bringing a formula for I mean, there are many formulas you mentioned, and many countries on one side or the other and divide. Uh, but you're not bringing a formula of backing anyone formally. You just want to facilitate the uh that would be unwise. But you do support the expansion? I think it is.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

It is a fact that we have all uh agreed that this is we have to move towards that, but there are different uh approaches to that, and they must all be respected. They must all be respected.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Well, there are of course many challenges.

UN Budget Pressure And Right Sizing

SPEAKER_01 25:54

That's a long-term uh one. More recently, there have been uh the fiscal challenges. Yes. Um, and that is largely because the the largest fund of the UN, the US has talked about putting it on a fiscal diet. But you yourself have uh said occasionally that the UN is overly bureaucratic.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

How do you feel about the fiscal diet and how would you adapt to that in your role should you become the Secretary General?

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Well, I think that uh uh it is important to recognize that uh uh uh it's a problem that needs to be addressed. It it has to be addressed. Uh the now today everybody talks about reform, and I think it's not it's not bad uh that that uh this is accepted. But two years ago that was not the case. Um and it has been prompted prompted by this approach from the United States. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Uh it is logical that we review how the organization is moving, uh what direction is it uh having, and whether it's it is having the impact it should be it should be having. I believe I'm optimistic about this because I think that uh it boils down to trust, to trust in the person in charge, to having trust that the Secretary General will be uh reviewing uh honestly what what is there, what needs to be declared, and what needs to be preserved and and even reinforced. I have talked about right sizing, which means cuts in certain things and may mean reinforcing other aspects. I often say uh when I talk to colleagues in the global south, as you say, are coming from Latin America, uh the G77 and other groups that we don't want to see the development pillar to become the collateral uh of the uh this this whole process. And there are ways to address that, because what we see is is is a system that it is heavy on process and institutionalization and quite you know light on delivery. Uh when uh the metrics for that is not my own idea. When you look at the rate of attainment of the sustainable development goals as they were agreed, it's uh what 18%? And uh one could argue that it's perhaps even less when you look at the world, and I travel the world, right? I go to Africa, I go to Southeast Asia, Latin America, and it's frankly very this small. So the question, as I put in my vision, is is you know, the typical um proposition, is doing the same going to change this, or we simply move to Agenda 2030, to Agenda 2015, and to Agenda 2070, and to Agenda 2080. So I believe we have to be aware that change is needed. It doesn't mean doing away with this. On the contrary, it means trying to work with international finance institutions with them, not against them, with them. And that's how you believe you will convince the United States that it's worth the investment, the United Nations and sound, very sound management, really, where we of course we have to be aware of the fact that the SG can do that much. Uh of member states is indispensable because many places that could, for example, benefit from mergers, from uh, you know, uh some mainstreaming, some uh efficiencies, well, they will depend that will depend on the will of countries. How far will the one go?

Sports As Soft Power Diplomacy

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Now we have just a few minutes left, and I do have a fun question for you. Yes, which is global sport and soft power. Um, it's often been considered soft power. We have the World Cup, of course, coming to North America. Your country is coming as the defending champions. Indeed. Um, you know, on the other hand, sport has become politicized recently. Is there still room for uh a global sporting event like the World Cup to be an opportunity for soft power and diplomacy, or has it become politicized like a lot of people?

SPEAKER_04 30:33

Well, no, I I believe that. I think it's an excellent, uh it's an excellent topic, really, because politicization will always be there. Even even the best and the most noble causes will, you know, can be uh people can try to manipulate that. But but this is something that resonates. You know, you mentioned I'm Argentine. Of course, I'm I'm an international civil servant, so my my my uh but but this is from the final in Qatar, you know. Uh so you see that in my heart of hearts, you know, I have a team, but there is this passion, and there is nothing like the like sports to bring people together, especially the young people. You know how important sport is to take you know young people from the streets to channel them into uh important activities. So I I I truly believe in the symbolic and real power of sports to bring people together. And if I become Secretary General, you will see me a lot with the with the uh you know uh uh Olympics uh committee and and with FIFA and other people where I'm with whom I'm working already in some things, you know, with we help.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Don't you do some coaching of a youth uh group?

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Did I read somewhere that you do coaching with a youth football and I used to play a lot and now I coach, of course, my age, I cannot play anymore.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

But you're passing it on to the youth.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

But but more importantly, I mean coaching is it's fantastic. But we, for example, from the IEA, we help countries uh with big public events like World Cups and the African Cup of Nations, etc., to to have them in a secure manner. So we are close to the to the sports world, and I intend to emphasize that also. We need inspiring things, good things, people, things that people feel good about. And this is one.

Final Takeaways And Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Well, that's an excellent note to end on. Uh, Mr. Director General, thank you so much for joining us as a delegates of the time.

SPEAKER_04 32:32

I had uh very good time. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

We'd like to thank every steam here so graciously matters.