Exclusive: Estonia's Foreign Minister at the United Nations

Want to watch the episode? Check out our video interview on our NEW YouTube channel!

While in New York for the 80th Session of the General Assembly, Estonia’s foreign minister sat down with The Delegates Lounge podcast at Estonia's Mission to the United Nations. He had recently addressed an emergency session of the UN Security Council on the threats of Russia's air incursions into NATO airspace.

Our conversation examines what deterrence looks like when Moscow tests the line. From NATO's Baltic Sentry and Eastern Sentry Operations to Article 4 consultations, we delve into the developments set in motion by the Kremlin's recent incursions into NATO airspace on the eve of the gathering of more than 150 heads of state and government for the General Assembly in New York.

The conversation goes beyond immediate threats to NATO countries to the problem of paying for the long war that Russia is waging on Ukraine. Estonia makes the case for using frozen Russian assets for Ukraine, paired with tighter sanctions that strike at Russia’s war economy. The conversation also confronts the challenges facing the United Nations itself, as the organization struggles with a fiscal crisis and uncertainty over its sense of purpose.

If this episode resonates with you, be sure to follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review. It will help others who share your interests find their way to The Delegates Lounge podcast.

Speakers:

J. Alex Tarquinio (host). @alextarquinio of delegateslounge on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

Margus Tsahkna, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia (guest). @Tsahkna of @MFAestonia on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

References:

Alex, our podcast host, wrote the United Nations General Assembly curtain raiser for Foreign Policy. Here's a free gift link to the article.

Transcript

Setting the Stage: UN High Level Week

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. I'm Alex Turquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City, and your MC for this podcast, featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back to the Delegates Lounge Podcast. We're continuing our coverage of the United Nations High Level Week. You can find our video reports now on our brand new YouTube channel, and we will continue to publish our audio podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual podcast platforms. In this episode, we're privileged to bring you our conversation with the foreign minister of Estonia, Margot Sakna. Minister Sakna has been in that role since 2023, having served previously as a country's Minister of Defense and Minister of Social Protection. We held a critical conversation delving into Russia's incursions on NATO's eastern flank and the recent creation of NATO's operation Baltic Dissentry. That led to a broader discussion of the challenges on NATO's eastern flank. Looking beyond the immediate threats, we also delved into security guarantees for Ukraine after the conclusion of Russian's invasion and the practicalities of releasing Russian frozen acids in Europe in the AWP. And finally, as we're doing with all of our guests this week, we discussed the challenges facing the United Nations itself amid a growing physical crisis and questions about the organization's future. Minister Sapo has chaired his perspective on these matters.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Thank you very much for this opportunity.

Estonia’s Take on UN Direction and U.S. Signals

SPEAKER_01 2:21

And I should mention to our listeners now watchers, because we're also on YouTube, but if you were listening last year on Apple Podcasts, they would have heard our conversation at last year's UN High Level Week. Much has changed. A year ago, uh we were talking about the pact of the future. Now we're talking about uh major changes to the UN and possibly some efficiencies in downsizing. I know many delegates were waiting with bated breath for the speech by the US president this morning to give perhaps some direction on what the vision for multilateralism is and for the United Nations. Um, what is your view about the direction? And did you hear anything so far today uh that gives you any confidence you understand the direction the organization is going in?

SPEAKER_02 3:07

You mean United Nations.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yes, the United Nations.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

I think the United Nations are going one way, and then there is a President Trump speech when mainly he uh was talking about what he's doing about uh America First, to be honest, about business, uh but there are like it was really very too many topics to comment at what was uh you know one thing or the other thing. I was pretty satisfied about his criticism about uh Putin and Russia, that uh he would like to have a peace. Uh I mean Trump, and uh he was thinking that it is the most easiest uh thing, but actually, unfortunately not. And actually, this this is exactly what we knew already a year a year ago. And uh, but of course, uh criticism about the United Nations, it was there, but also that United Nations should have a part uh in his plans about uh the world. So uh, but let's see, I think that United Nations is very important right now, uh General Assembly mainly, because the Security Council sometimes is not able to work because uh the aggression as Russia is a part of that as a permanent member and having the better vote. But uh we as an Estonia we called first time ever after 34 years of membership of United Nations yesterday, the Security Council, uh, which was very straightforward. And uh and the US was there in a very strong position with the the uh the ambassador, uh very fresh.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Uh well, in fact, that was the ambassador's not just very fresh, that was his very first meeting, which was very symbolic. He is considered to be uh more hawkish on Russia, perhaps, than other members of President Trump's cabinet, uh, to be honest. And uh, you know, he was there, that was his first meeting. I mean, it was only presented his credentials the day before. You did call that meeting. First of all, did you feel satisfied with the statements that were made? There were a lot of direct statements made uh to the Russian delegation.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Also, there are pictures of these fighter jets, and it is very clear that these fighter jets they carried as well missiles. All of them they carried missiles, and they were combat-ready planes, and you can see from here as well, Russian representatives, that these are the photos which really were taken during this heavy violation of NATO and Estonian airspace. So, what I want to say is that violation is crystal clear, and Russia is lying again, as it has been lied before, several times. We remember the occupation of Georgia 2008, 2014, Crimea, 2022, aggression against Ukraine.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Did you feel satisfied with the outcome of that meeting?

Airspace Violations and Security Council Showdown

SPEAKER_03 6:08

I was very satisfied. Uh, first thing that uh more than 50 uh countries uh uh joined this declaration, what we uh adopted before, and we published that uh as a price statement. Uh, and also then uh what it was not surprising that uh Russia said uh many things that it never happened, this violation of the Estonian airspace uh for listeners as well. It happened in last Friday. We got uh three uh fighter jets in uh to Estonia and NATO airspace uh longest time ever, 12 minutes. Uh they were heavy equipped with uh missiles, so we called uh Security Council, but also Article 4 uh consultations for today, which uh were in Brussels uh right now in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

You anticipate my next question, or do you think that you've debated Article 4 before you even vote that? Do you feel they've done enough?

NATO Unity, Article 4, and Eastern Deterrence

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Coming back to the Security Council, of course, we didn't even ask any kind of measures right now. It was mainly a political statement, and also to show uh the uh the global south on globally as well that uh this is not the the matter which is concerning us uh as Estonia or in Europe, that Russia is now testing as well NATO, which is a very dangerous path. But also it's a question about territorial integrity matters and questions, which is very common for everybody here today, this week. All the leaders are here. So it got lots of attention. And and also for these countries who are dealing with Russia, you know, because they are far away, they're just you know, economically having relations and politically. Putin is talking about peace, they believe that, but actually, if Putin is talking about peace, he means more war. So, for that meaning, it was very, very clear uh messages and also US uh participation was uh very important. And uh, and and uh new ambassador Walsh said very clearly that Article 5 will be there. Uh US is committed to protecting its allies, and for us, it was really important uh back home. I got a response now uh from Estonia and from the region and from Europe as well. Uh we decided in the beginning of the 90s, after regaining our independence, that we will never be alone again as if we were in the 1930s and 40s, and this mesh has really touched our people. And Article 4, uh yes, we are satisfied with that as well. Because uh first time NATO in our region, we had this kind of situation when uh three uh fighters came into the NATO airspace and violated it 12 minutes, it's uh more than 100 kilometers uh inside the NATO. And also uh the uh air patrol mission went up, uh, they were ready to act as a NATO. You know, if there is a need, we shoot them down, but there was no direct uh immediate uh threat to us. But NATO worked well. But also today, this uh Article 4 consultations uh the unity is something we need to show to Putin. Because one reason why Putin is being too provocative and also testing us is to uh to test whether we are first able to act, and the second is how united we are, because he's playing with Trump, he's playing uh uh Europe against Trump and Trump against Europe and so on. But uh in that regard, uh NATO is working uh perfectly. And as well, we uh discussed uh uh this uh mission we called after the heavy attacks uh just a week before against Poland with 19 uh drones, which were like shut down mostly. Uh Eastern Century, which is a very practical tool to increase the capabilities on the eastern flank, and uh there will be more capabilities, air defense, and readiness and deterrence uh for the next uh future. And this is now on military planning. The political decision was made today. So I'm satisfied as a foreign minister of Estonia with these messages, reactions, and also the plans what now decided.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Well, it sounds like you're you're very satisfied at the level of NATO. Uh there's the Eastern Century, which is in response to the drone incursions in Poland and Romania. Uh, there was already the Baltic century. Um, but turning to Ukraine, Estonia has long been an advocate of giving the uh frozen Russian assets to Ukraine. You've actually made changes in your legislature and law. What advice do you have for those European countries who are considering similar measures, but maybe perhaps are not as far along that road?

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Uh I felt that we were very lone, like three years ago, but now things are moving because more and more governments understand that uh Russia is continuing the war. We need to finance Ukraine, and more taxpayers asking the rightful question uh why we need to pay if you have uh we have actually the Russian frozen assets in Europe, like 230 billion. It's a lot of money. And as well politically, I think that uh Putin is playing now with Trump, uh, but at the same time is waging more war. And uh as well on from the US side, there are clearer signs that uh let's uh let's use the Russian frozen assets, but of course, main assets, uh central bank assets in Europe. And we are pushing heavily, and now we have uh more and more understanding uh in Europe as well. Uh as well, the President von der Leyen uh just uh a week ago with her speech said that Europe must find a way how to use the Russian frozen assets. So these things are moving well, but not good enough. So in the Estonian position, we would like to confiscate them and also give them to Ukraine. But if we find any other solution uh to keep the assets and also use them at the same time as a guarantee or the loan and whatever to Ukraine, it will be the solution. But also, it all works together with the sanction packages and more pressure. Now we adopt very soon the 19th package of the sanctions already in Europe, and we hope as well that President Trump is not uh, you know, today as well in the speech said that he's ready to do, but Europe must do more. But we have done a lot already, and we do more. If the US is uh stepping in as well with the full-scale sanctions as a package in the Senate, the Graham package uh consists. So uh I think that Putin will be in trouble because his economical figures are very bad. And he has not gained any strategic breakthrough on the battlefield. Any. Just moving maybe one kilometer, two kilometers, but no strategic breakthrough. Within a year, as we talked a year ago, more people are dead, more people are dead, but no success. And also, you know, on a political level. Now he's after uh NATO testing, but I think that it's a huge mistake. So he will be more isolated again. But at the same time, the meeting in Alaska, Trump brought him out with a goodwill to start the peace negotiations and and so on. Putin's just playing and also waging more war, but he's out from isolation and China and India and they're more close than ever before. So many things to solve. But frozen assets, yeah, we can take them. And we are moving in the right direction.

Frozen Russian Assets: Paths to Pay for Ukraine

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Right. Um another question on Ukraine. Uh essentially guarding the peace whenever we do get to this point. Uh it's difficult to imagine uh UN-mandated peacekeepers given Russia Russia's veto on the Security Council. Uh, Russia's also, of course, stay in their opposition to NATO peacekeepers. Uh, but what can NATO do? Uh and do you think that the NATO response thus far has been adequate? The the European and NATO countries that have said that they are willing to send troops uh to Ukraine in that instance.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Estonia's position is clear and it will continue like this. The best security guarantee for Ukraine, but also for us in the region, is uh the full membership for Ukraine to NATO. With all these responsibilities, and the other way around, because Ukraine has now the largest active military power in Europe with lots of experience with Russia. So we need their guarantees as well to us, be honest, in real life. But in reality, uh of course NATO is not jumping in, but now we are uh putting together this coalition of the willing uh about uh the military capabilities. Estonia as a small country, but also a bordering country. We took Eliso as well, and we said already in spring that we are able to send uh pretty remarkable size of military capabilities and real troops boots on the ground to Ukraine if the ceasefire is coming, if the conditions are there, uh the others are doing the same. Because one or the other way around, Europe and also together with the US, we must put the skin in the game if we give any kind of guarantees. We cannot just uh repeat uh these Minsk agreements, what we had. So this is the reality. And that's we need as well the US backup, at least, not even maybe the military, you know, boots on the ground presence. And that is uh something we need to understand. To keep the peace there, it's not the peacekeeping. Peacekeeping is a totally different mission. We are talking about skin in the game article five uh principle. We need to understand as well that if we give this kind of guarantees, then we must be ready to fight as well. This is the uh the only way to do then to keep the peace.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

It's a real world on-the-ground show of not a piece of paper, not the middle scale.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

It doesn't work because we know we know exactly that Putin will continue, even though the ceasefire is coming, and there is no uh solid security guarantee is what I was talking about. He will just continue. He will come again. And that's uh we need to understand that Europe, uh Ukraine is in Europe, you're Ukraine is not somewhere else. So, yes. Roll, we need to stop. Yeah, but thank you so much. Thank you. I I had an opportunity. One thing is that I think Putin is stealing our words. You know, uh, we are talking about peace, and now he's talking about peace, and this is actually war. Uh, we're talking about security guarantees. Now he's talking about security guarantees, and it needs it means about security guarantees that he's giving the security guarantees with China and Brazil and so on. And these are not security guarantees. So he's a good uh say thief. Is he like you know, Steven?

SPEAKER_01 16:21

That's the irony. He's talking about security guarantees. He's saying always happy to talk to Zelensky if he comes to Moscow. Yep. I mean, they the irony is Please come to Moscow, securing our okay. We should comment that these incursions in your air space are far from the first. But they are uh probing and each time spending a little more time or or extending it in that way. Uh, but when you go to the Security Council, you still are confronted with the Russian veto. I mean, is there anything you can do, or or how can you approach the United Nations to get around the Russian veto?

Security Guarantees for Ukraine Beyond Ceasefire

SPEAKER_03 16:55

It's already a very long story. And I remember when I was a student and everybody wanted to reform the Security Council, and now it's a very practical uh concern as well, because Russia is waging the war already uh fourth year, and uh being the member of the Security Council is actually you know working totally against these principles and the United Nations Charter and um and also China and many other countries. So uh I think that the UN has lost these capabilities uh to be decisive and also uh having the very concrete missions or or measurements uh you know to solve one or the other military conflict. Uh, we have more than 60 military conflicts now in the world. It's more than ever after the Second World War. And the United Nations was called and founded in in 1945, just after the Second World War, where the balance of powers were presented in the Security Council with the permanent members. And it's obvious that uh this balance is now in a totally different uh uh point. But uh UN Security Council is not reformed. So that's our concern. We need to reform. We need to ask more different countries uh join from different uh geographical locations, but also we need to re review uh the veto right. This is very important. If you are an aggressive country, which is actually a decision of the Security Council, not the Security Council, but the General Assembly, and then you have a special rights to plot everything. So there's no logic and it it can't work. But I don't believe as well that we are able to change this, uh, because uh finally the Security Council will decide the change and reform about the Security Council, and this is nonsense.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

So that's why it is a conundrum, unless many people have looked at it because obviously uh more than 140 countries uh voted in support of Ukraine and and um believed that Russia was the aggressor.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Yeah, that's why I believe that uh actually General Assembly will play a more role, more practical roles, and then the collision of the willings between different countries. This this is the way, unfortunately. And the question for the long run is whether United Nations uh uh as it was built uh in 1945 will continue like this. Is this kind of uh world order we agree to 45 will continue at all? Or the world will be very much divided between uh the democracies and non-democracies and more wars. So this is the game, and it's very dangerous. It's like a domino effect. We're not talking about Russian aggression against Ukraine here in the United Nations only because of Ukraine. But many others are taking the lead if they see that you can actually change the borders using military force, and that's a very dangerous path. And that's why multilateralism is really, really important in practical life. It's not theoretical anymore. This is our concern.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Right. Well, I think we see the issues at the United Nations, and of course, the United Nations is also going through a deep soul searching process. There's a fiscal crisis, uh, the United States in particular has stopped funding, uh, making many payments, and is also, in fact, getting out of some programs. Do you think that the United Nations needs to focus more on its core original mission of uh peace and security? Or is it really Security Council reform of the veto that is that is standing in the way?

UN Veto, Reform Stalemate, and GA Workarounds

SPEAKER_03 20:21

It's it's all together because if Security Council is out of order, so it it hits all the other institutions as well under the United Nations. But also uh this funding question is is very critical. And today, as well, the President Trump said in the speech, but in very cynical ways, in the meaning, uh, we're talking about the building there, the the you know, the building of United Nations uh as much as it costs, and this is like the example how much actually the UN is wasting money. But uh I'm in a position as well that of course the United Nations should look into that. How bureaucratical all this uh mechanism is. Uh, how can we use this money more properly or more efficiently? And Estonia is doing our part here. We have proposed as well uh digital solutions. We're working very closely with the humanitarian organizations, uh, Red Cross, uh uh, you know, how to deliver more efficiently uh, you know, this uh this uh this aid to the people who need. Yeah, absolutely. But it's not actually solving the problem, but funding is really, really lacking globally. Not the only from the US side, which is very critical, but also, you know, if you see the other other countries globally, though the economy is not doing well, it's hard to explain actually why we support uh United Nations like broadly. People ask exactly where my money is going and what is the problem. And we see more disaster in the world. We see a very, very critical moment. Humanitarian casters. People, people are dying, you know, children are dying. Uh so I don't know what is the solution.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Is the solution though reform of the United Nations itself or um looking to other institutions? We spoke about NATO, of course. NATO is a defensive alliance, it's not really analogous. Uh, there's the European Union and other regional organizations. Um, do they perhaps need to take on some of the role of what you feel is lacking at the US?

SPEAKER_03 22:14

NATO is investing now heavily to defense, and this is which is the peace and security. Absolutely. And also taking more responsibility on different regions. I see the corporation as well, this Indo-Pacific region and so on. But of course, Europe in European Union, we are really thinking and now making the plans how Europe can jump in more actively. Because Europe has been spreading money as well, maybe too generously, without controlling where this money is going, how efficiently actually this money has been used on uh humanitarian ways, because uh European Union has been through the decades uh the largest donor for Africa, for uh you know, Palestine and so on, and now we see the results. So I think that European Union, first thing, we have lots of money, but the second, actually, we need to reform our programs as well. So we cannot, of course, uh uh take uh all the responsibilities that the US had, but we can do more and more efficiently. And this uh these plans are now under consideration because we are going to have the next uh budget period uh pretty soon. Um yeah, but uh but I think that this is a global question much more. Uh and also investments. I think that the European Union is now reviewing the different programs, not just giving money for economic development, but also this global gateway program, which is actually based on like private sector investments. So it's much more like investments and developments, not just sharing the money. So, but it takes time. At the same time, we have lots of conflicts. People are just dying and starving, and I don't know what will be the problem.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

So this is where the uh the two sides actually, the humanitarian relief and the peace and security dovetail because of the weaknesses on the Security Council, the inability to do anything about the Ukraine war. Uh, NATO has now pledged to go to 5% of GDP. That doesn't sound like a lot when you're in Estonia and you're already there. But for some countries, that's a big increase. And they're having to find the money from somewhere, and it's often coming from their support for humanitarian aid because they can't cut back at home. They need to spend more on defense. So Estonia, who's already paying these high levels of defense, how would you uh advise them to find this balance between uh self-defense and some of the other traditional roles that the UN has had, such as humanitarian?

Funding Strains, Bureaucracy, and Digital Efficiency

SPEAKER_03 24:34

It's hard to explain, really, even in Estonia. So uh we our 5.4% next year will hit us uh heavily. We just finished our next year budget negotiations, so we have been increasing taxes. And our taxpayers are asking exactly why we need to pay so much. They understand why we invest in defense. It's like 90% of support we need to do it. Also, we have education, we have social systems, we have you know all the other things, we have pensioners as as as as all the other countries and governments. We are supporting heavily Ukraine. We support like uh 0.35% of our GDP military support to Ukraine right now. And no one is asking this why we do that. And then we if we say that actually now we are uh sending some kind of money to United Nations, uh, whatever organization, it's it's it's no people asking, okay, let's do it, but we want to see where the money is going. And these figures nominally, they are not so big. So I think that's the same problem is everywhere. So we mean we need to be more transparent and be able as well to explain our taxpayers where the money is going. And as well about defense. Uh, most of the big countries, if they heavily invest in defense, most of this money goes back to their defense industry. In Estonia and small countries, most of this money goes out from our economy to the US, to Germany, to France, wherever, because our production capabilities are not there. So our economy is actually suffering even more. And we take the first uh first hit if Russia is aggressive on the border as Baltics and Poland and Finland and some others. So this is not an equal thing. And then at the same time, if we do everything to protect uh Europe and NATO and also support Ukraine, and then we were asked that uh, but why are you not spending money for humanitarian crises as much? So this is not uh like uh honest business, but we do, anyways. So uh that's why I think many different governments on different locations they need to explain that uh because we are democracies. Finally, our people are voting.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

And we won't follow, we we won't contribute finding ourselves in positions that uh we are not supporting its humanitarian issues. We do a lot.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Well that's an excellent point to end on um yeah is a lot to think about, uh, particularly the difference between uh the sacrifices that you have to make in Estonia um relative to other other NATO countries. So thank you so much once again for joining us in the delegates lounge.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Thank you very much, but I I see the light end of the tunnel, and it's not hopefully the train which is coming, but it's the sun.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yes, let's let's hope it's a nice sunny day like it is here in New York.

Europe’s Role: Defense, Aid, and Accountability

SPEAKER_00 27:44

And that's it from the delegates lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests who've graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday or from time to time if we're on the road for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicates lounge.com. We're a small team, so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly executive producer Frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.