Exclusive: Romania's Foreign Minister at the United Nations

Romania’s Foreign Minister Oana Toiu sat down with The Delegates Lounge podcast on the margins of the United Nations General Assembly. From an official Romanian office overlooking the East River, she spoke candidly about Eastern European security and the calculations that went into Romania's decision making when a Russian drone recently transited their territorial airspace for around 50 minutes.

The UN General Assembly has now officially begun its 80th session. The high-level week began with a conference on recognizing Palestine, with several countries doing so for the first time. Romania, however, was among the first European countries to do so. The minister was clear on two points: Hostage release should be the first principle; and Hamas has no political future. At the same time, she said, the humanitarian emergency demands action and a horizon toward a two‑state solution. 

Finally, we discussed the malaise at the United Nations, from a fiscal crisis to the search for the next secretary-general. She makes a serious case for an Eastern European secretary‑general after eight decades without one.

If you value strategic clarity over sound bites, press play. Then subscribe, share with a friend who follows world affairs, and leave a review to help others find their way to The Delegates Lounge.

Speakers:

J. Alex Tarquinio (host) is a resident correspondent at the United Nations in New York and co-founder of The Delegates Lounge podcast. @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X and @thedelegateslounge on Instagram.

Oana Toiu (guest) is the foreign minister of Romania. @oana_toiu of @MAERomania on X and @oana_toiu of @mfaromania on Instagram.

References:

Our podcast host, J. Alex Tarquinio, covered the United Nations high-level week for Foreign Policy. Here's a gift link to the coverage.

Transcript

High-Level Week Setup

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Turquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City, and your MC for this podcast, featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back to the Delegates Lounge Podcast. We are continuing our comprehensive coverage of the United Nations High Level Week. You can find our videos on our brand new YouTube channel or we will continue to publish our audio podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. In this episode, we're honored to bring you on conversation with Romania's foreign minister. The inclusion of Russian into our country's interest. We also just can't Romanian support for Ukraine. We just got to see ongoing challenges at the United Nations. We just got challenges in the physical crisis where there are ongoing discussions about the organization's future. Here's our conversation. This week of all weeks, high-level week here at the UN. We are really honored to have you.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Thank you so much for having the opportunity to talk to you today.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Well, let's jump right in to Russia's aerospace violations in your country and others, namely Poland and Estonia. And we had um a meeting about this today. Um you've described the recent incursions of Russian drones into Romanian airspace, a NATO country, as reckless. It is a serious escalation. Many people are wondering, first of all, why Romania did not shoot down the drone that was over your territory for some 50 minutes. Um can you begin by explaining your thinking behind that decision?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Sure. We have seen the drone approaching our airspace even before because the radars have caught it in the Ukrainian uh conflict. So we had the flight already in the air, the airplanes were already there, two F-60s that have monitored the drone. Our decision was to take it down uh in terms of a military hierarchical decision. The Ministry of Ufense, Yonutzmochtanu, has given the green light for that. So the pilots had those instructions. Our operating approach to it is that it is finally the decision of the pilot in the sense that they are the ones that can best assess the situation on the ground. And one indicator that they have through the law is that they need to assess the imminent risk of life versus the collateral potential risk of shooting it down. And the drone didn't go over inhabited territories. The intention was even so to take it down because it is a risk to Ukrainian um territory as well, once it goes back into the Ukrainian air. But every time they had it inside, the evaluation of potential collateral risks of shooting it down and having uh that on the ground versus trying to find a better uh angle led to the decision that you saw finally that the drone has left our airspace by the time the pilots were able through that analysis of risks to shoot it down.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

So it was merely a timing issue with the risk analysis. The decision had been made to shoot it down. You were not deliberately escorting it out of your airspace.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

The decision was clear to shoot it down for a while. We didn't have the proper legislation to make sure we shoot down drones, but we have fixed that in the parliament. Um so now we have all these.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

That's actually my next question. So you've anticipated me. So there's nothing legally in Romanian law that would prevent you from shooting down a drone.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

At the beginning of the aggression of uh Ukraine, when we saw different types of provocations to our airspace as well, we didn't have fully the proper legislative framework. Um, very small detail that matter, for example, was that in our law we had previous steps like trying to reach the pilot, uh trying to have an answer or a lack of answer before you take the decisions. And obviously, these do not apply to drones.

Romania’s Evolving Airspace Laws

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Well, that was actually a very interesting point. Does the new legislation apply only to drones, or would it also apply to a piloted aircraft? I mean, obviously that is a bigger decision to shoot that down. If a piloted aircraft entered your space, would you be able to legally shoot that down?

SPEAKER_02 5:27

So for piloted aircraft, because it was something that was already used in previous conflicts, there was and there is uh legislation in place. It's just that we've adapted it to be able to apply it to drones as well. So the legal framework is there. The decision of the Minister of Defense was very clear in that direction. Uh but the pilots, we think, took the right decision in the sense that they have their final responsibility to take these decisions, not based on optics, but based on the interests that they need to protect, to defend our citizens. But also, when possible, the decision is also clear not to allow for those threats to go back into the Ukrainian space. We're very clear on that as well. We have been supporters of Ukraine even from the beginning, in terms of military support, humanitarian support, and also diplomatically and politically, our stance is very clear that the conflict needs to end, that Ukraine is not the country that has started the conflict, and that the path towards peace, towards getting Putin really at the negotiation table, is a path where the Ukrainian army has the necessary support, where the families have the necessary humanitarian support or safe refuge, as was the case for um what Romania has provided since the beginning of the war.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

But to be clear, if a manned aircraft entered your aerospace, would your pilots need to make an attempt to contact it first before shooting it down? Is that the difference between that law and the drone law?

SPEAKER_02 6:57

The drone law practically creates the frame to be able to shoot it down because we needed clarification as the previous laws were made when there were no drones. But if there was a pilot, they would still try to. I wouldn't go into the military details. I would refer you to Yonutskas. That makes sense. In in this type of military decision, chain of command types of situations. What I can say though is that we have a clear approach to all of them. And we have a clear situation by situation decision-making process.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

That makes sense. And another question some people have had is why you did not invoke Article IV, which some other countries have done. And I believe Romania did this at the start of the full-scale invasion in February 2022. Why, what your thought, your thinking was behind not invoking Article.

NATO Consultations vs Article IV

SPEAKER_02 7:49

So the main goal of Article IV is to have a consultation between countries, members of NATO, to share the information that you have and to search together for solutions. And that has already happened when Article IV was invoked by Poland just the days before the Russian drone has entered the airspace. In the format of that discussion, we did not just discuss about Poland's defense or Poland's security. We had a full discussion about the Eastern Flank. How is it that each country perceives it? What is it that we can do better within NATO? The decision of that meeting was communicated by Marrute very clearly in reinforcing the Eastern Flank air defense with air capabilities and also ground capabilities that support the air defense. And that conversation, those decisions included already the Eastern Flank. So we didn't consider it necessary to do another consultation on Article 4 on our case simply because what we felt as security threats, what we needed, how do we see together with the rest of the countries the way forward in protecting the Eastern Flank were addressed already just days before.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I see. And at the time, well, you said to me in my reporting for my article, but also on um social media that you intended to have conversations and essentially more consultations here in New York at the UN. Um officially the opening is in the morning, but have you have those consultations with your counterparts already begun?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

The consultations have already begun. We have officially uh firmly addressed the Russian aggression already today in the Security Council where we had our intervention. Uh also what was very important for us, and very important, I would say, for the region, is that today, in the interventions that other countries have had in the Security Council, they were very clear on uh the risk they saw for all of us. They've mentioned Estonia, Poland, uh, Romania together. Um, and that is important because we need to have a firm uh diplomatic response together. That also is a deterrence factor, and our aim together uh today as well was to make sure we have a clear voice in that direction, that Russia understands that this is not something that we take lightly, that none of us is alone in this, but rather that we all perceive the security of one as having implications to the security of all.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well, in fact, um the Security Council obviously has its hands tied because Russia is a P5 member, so it has a veto. But is this where the Security Council does come into its own, the fact that you can all go there and speak directly to Russia, even if you're not speaking with them diplomatically in other forums?

UN Limits, Veto Power, and Reform

SPEAKER_02 10:40

You're correct in what you're saying. But I think the challenges that we we face, the type of risks that are happening throughout the world, specifically that we're talking about now in Ukraine, need more than conversations. So I think we need to find a way that the Security Council can take decisions. I don't think it's really fair or something that can be fully respected if you have a member of the Security Council using the vote, the veto it has when it is also the aggressor. And in that sense, Romania has participated and will continue to do so in working groups and different formats that are aiming to reform the United Nations. For us, it's extremely important that we keep uh the multilateralism. We think it needs to be actually stronger. We think it is a time when it is needed even more. Uh, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Uh, and we're among the countries that consider that the way forward requires some changes that we're working towards. By reform, are you also including veto reform on the Security Council? The position of Romania is that we need to consider uh ways in which situations like the one we have now are not gonna happen in the future.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Where uh a P5 member is the actual aggressor in a country. Yes, okay. Um well, NATO, getting back, returning back from the U into NATO, um, has begun uh Operation Eastern Century and Baltic Century uh trying to be a counterweight to these Russian incursions. Um what more do you think NATO should be doing to counter Russia's repeated violations?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

So I think NATO's um reaction is accurate, is proportional, it is what needs to get done. I also think it is very important that we had the NATO Hague summit where all of us have decided to step up our budgets to 5%. Uh that is essential because now we already have the political commitment for the necessary budgets for the initiatives you're talking about. But also in the same time, it is not just a matter of money. Uh, we need to make sure we invest together in the proper innovations, the proper dual use um products, proper dual use uh procurement. Um, because it is also that we're facing new types of threats, new types of instruments from the Russian side. So on NATO side, we need to make sure we continue our conversations on AI, on cyber threats, on hybrid war. Um, we need to innovate and work more in the defense industry towards creating more agile um, yeah, for example, drones. And this is something that in Romania we have discussed now to go forward with common projects with Ukraine because we consider they are the ones that have learned the most in awful conditions that no one can replicate or should replicate. Um, so we have this path going forward. We have the decision to create together with the Ukrainians in Romania production capacities for um for defensive drones.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

So those are Romanian uh companies or the defense sector working with the Ukrainian defense sector in terms of manufacturing. Is that inside of Ukraine?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

The current uh decision is an agreement between the ministries of defense. We have a memorandum together between our governments as well in that direction, and we will announce it gradually as it evolves.

NATO Posture, Budgets, and Innovation

SPEAKER_01 14:18

And you mentioned AI, obviously, both AI and drones are very important now in the evolution of warfare we're seeing in Ukraine. Um, also, evidently, NATO is a defensive alliance. We're sitting here across the street from the United Nations, which is focused on peace and security, um, but is not a military alliance, obviously. Um, but they're also concerned about artificial intelligence and digital regulation. Is there some way that NATO and the UN can, I guess, learn from the work that each side is doing on AI, for example?

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Definitely. And we also need to share the lessons that we have. How do we see the risks? Also, the risk analysis is something that we need to share more, even in these formats. Romania is in a specific place in the sense that we have good specialists in terms of tech, AI, cybersecurity. We are actually providers of cybersecurity for many parts of the world with our private companies, but also sharing of some of the know-how that we have developed. We have been ourselves the target of cyber attacks and hybrid aggressions from Russia. Um, this is formally recognized as well in a common European Union statement, in a NATO statement. Uh, and that challenge has put us in the position to have to learn fast to develop our response. The work is not done, nor is it perfect. But we are very aware of the risk and of the fact that institutions need to adapt to it and we need new new instruments to counter it.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

In terms of the gray space areas, in terms around elections and social media. Um also regarding Ukraine, Romania has um, I wanted to get some clarification on your position in terms of we're skipping ahead now, sending perhaps peacekeeping troops or troops on the ground at the end of the conflict, um, if such a mission were established. Obviously, this is still theoretical at this point. Um, Romania sort of staked out a position. Can you explain whether you have decided that you would send peacekeeping troops after the conflict and what factors would guide your decision making?

Joint Drone Production with Ukraine

SPEAKER_02 16:33

So if you allow me for a bit of context for who is hearing the podcast um here in the US, especially, Romania is the country that has the longest border with Ukraine between uh Ukraine's friendly neighbors. That's a very nice distinction. Um and even if we include the Republic of Moldova, then together with the Republic of Moldova, even more so. Uh, our priority is to help with these capabilities that we have in in terms of helping with military aid. So that's something that we've been doing since the beginning of the conflict. Um, we've also donated the Patriot air defense system uh to Ukraine, together with a lot of international partners, because then the financial effort uh to compensate for Romania's defense capacity was a common international one. We already helped in terms of humanitarian aid, in terms of protecting the logistical uh routes. Uh the Black Sea and the Constant support have been absolutely essential in allowing the serials to um be exported from uh from Ukraine. In terms of troops on the ground, we have a clear decision currently uh that we are not sending uh troops in Ukraine, but that is a current decision. It depends on how the peace negotiations evolve, on what's gonna be our common effort within the European Union, maybe OSHA mission together. Um we're not excluding formats of conversation or of analyzing potential common solutions in the future. But currently we have uh a common decision within our Security Council, our National Security Council, that that decision currently is clear of not sending troops on the ground.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Would it make a difference if it was a UN-sanctioned peacekeeping force versus a NATO effort?

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I think there are many conversations now taking place and many scenarios that are being developed. And I think it's the right thing to do to have now conversations about that moment in time so we can have a fast deployment when it is needed. But those are ongoing conversations.

AI, Cyber, and Hybrid Threat Sharing

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Um There's uh well I did also want to ask you, by the way, about the funds, because this has been another big discussion within Europe. Most of the the frozen assets, the Russian frozen assets are actually in Europe a relatively small matter in the United States. Um, what is Romania's position on this? Because there are two schools of thought within Europe. Some say, well, we have to respect international law, and in the future, other countries won't place their funds here, and others say that these are frozen Russian assets and Ukraine needs them now.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

So I think uh in terms of the decision in the European Union, Romania included, we are past the conversation of whether the Russian assets on our territory should or should not be an element in how we generate pressure towards Russia to stop this aggression. So I think we it's quite clear now among us that there is an element around frozen assets, an instrument that we can use to increase the pressure. And we already transfer some of the funds from the interest rates, the return on investment uh benefits, are already transferred to Ukraine. Uh not the assets themselves, but the return on investment that is generated by some of the assets.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

So each, this is an obvious I didn't really consider this, but each country that holds frozen Russian assets is responsible for turning over, or not responsible, but is the party that turns over the interest from those assets to Ukraine.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

This is a more complicated financial discussion because some of the assets are already in some investment funds. It's a more complex conversation in terms of financial instruments. But the next step of that conversation, which is more complicated legally, is the assets themselves and what can happen with them, how can they be used, if they can uh be used, then this is again an ongoing conversation.

Peacekeepers in Ukraine—Romania’s Position

SPEAKER_01 20:41

You mentioned um NATO's decision to go to 5% of military spending. Of course, budgets, including federal budgets, are always about prioritization. That's something that's going to be discussed much the next week at the United Nations. The balance between the need to re-arm in Europe and also contributions to foreign aid. We already know that there is some impact being felt with reduced voluntary contributions. Um how do you balance the protection of your own citizens and your need to spend more on defense with the commitments to foreign international aid?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, that that is the right question to ask and an amazing question to ask. Um and it's always hard to balance budgets because it's simply you reallocate resources in a sense on the short run. Uh on the long run, what I think is very important is that we need to understand that if the aim is security and we agree on that, we need to look more carefully at the instruments that we deploy. If the aim is security, the the instrument is not just military procurement. We need to continue investing in education because that creates resilience. And if we admit that uh Russia is using an array of instruments, including these hybrid approaches to create or amplify vulnerabilities within our democracies, um then it's even more obvious that we need to keep investing in education, we need to keep investing in protecting free media, all of the things that create and support resilient societies, uh because that in itself also serves, at the end of the day, a security objective.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

That makes sense. So the education spending, it's it's in a sense a type of defense spending in that it is resilience to the hybrid warfare of information warfare.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

You need a critical mind, you need the analysis uh capacity of an anal, yeah, analysis capacity. You need to have places and spaces that have actual conversations and not keep uh citizens almost trapped in this online space where the algorithms sometimes do not prioritize actual dialogue, but rather an entire spiral of at the end of the day, sometimes even uh hate speech or uh fake news.

Frozen Russian Assets and EU Options

SPEAKER_01 23:12

And that's a very interesting point about prioritizing education. Um, but in terms of foreign aid, um, and I'm actually not only talking about Romania here, here I am shifting more to the United Nations. Do you see that being a concern going forward? That in aggregate there will be fewer voluntary contributions to, for example, the main relief agency, Ocean, and the other voluntary, the World Food Program and the like.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

It is a valid concern, also because a lot of these organizations have a significant dependency on US contribution, for example. Uh, some things that we're uh realizing even more now within the European Union is uh that our contribution is essential, this we knew, but if we look at it collectively, we realize we are the top contributors in many of these organizations. If we look together at what the member states provide, uh, additional to what is provided through common instruments. So the European Union itself needs to understand better our role in this and the influence and the power that we have to adapt to these uh changes. That's one. And secondly, if I am to go back to our national perspective and the way we compensate for shrinking budgets in this direction, is the same type of complex approach of our instruments. I was speaking with the deans of our universities in Romania, uh, with some of these deans to figure out how we can increase uh the international programs in terms of masters, in terms of university, uh, because that creates um advantages for all of us. It's a development instrument and it helps our relationship with many countries. In the same time, our students in Romania have a more international space in their university years, and that enhances their experience as well.

Balancing Defense, Aid, and Resilience

SPEAKER_01 25:08

Yeah, that's that's very important. Um okay, turning to Palestine, because there are, well, there are a few key themes running through this week, and obviously the Russian incursions a few weeks ago, nobody expected that to be the key theme, but it is one of them. The Palestine conference, however, has been um we've been working towards that for many months here at the United Nations, and many countries that had not previously recognized Palestine are doing so here this week. Romania, on the other hand, was one of the first countries to recognize Palestine. So, how do you view the growing international consensus on Palestinian statehood?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

I have to start with what is very important to say. Because it is not always said every time we talk about this. So we need to say the priority remains that all the hostages are released. Everyone needs to be very, very clear on the idea that Hamas has no future in the future of Palestine and it needs to disarm. Um, this being said, it is also clear that we have a humanitarian crisis happening in Gaza and that we need to also take the political decisions that we need to take to again make sure there is the proper incentive for everyone to sit at the table to find the common solutions for an enduring peace and to have an immediate uh ceasefire to be able to do that. Uh, and Romania is in the position to have a balanced approach to this because we have a history that is rare, among other countries. We are one of the few countries in the world that have had uninterrupted diplomatic relationships for decades with both Israel and Palestine. So we're trying to use this balanced position to also be very clear on the crisis that we see in Gaza and on the fact that Israel has a responsibility in uh fixing it. Uh, but also on the fact that there needs to be absolute clarity on the priority of release of hostages, absolute clarity on the idea that Hamas has no future there. And in that context, yes, the solution that we see forward is the two-state solution.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Now it's very interesting that you mentioned the hostages first thing. Um, not everyone has when they're when they've been talking about this recognition. And here I'm talking also more broadly speaking, because Romania has for decades recognized both Israel and Palestine. Um the real significance though this week is that so many, many countries are recognizing it for the first time. France, the UK, Australia, uh, Canada, Portugal. What do you say, particularly to the hostage families, where they feel that this first-time recognition of Palestine gives a gift to Hamas and is not helping them to get their hostages and their family members released?

Gaza, Hostages, and Two‑State Path

SPEAKER_02 28:11

I can't speak on behalf of other countries. But but something that is clearly happening throughout Europe is that it is impossible for the citizens that we have to ignore uh the tragedy in Gaza, to ignore children that are searching for food because their parents have been killed, to ignore the loss of civilian life, to ignore uh the lack of proper access to healthcare, sometimes food, sometimes energy. So a lot of these actual citizens, not necessarily just the politicians or the decision-making bodies, are reacting to this situation, demanding that there is an action to be taken to try to save human life, essentially. Um, so what I would say, not to the families of hostages, because I don't think I have the right to say something to the families of hostages. For them, I think it is absolutely clear with no nuance that the priority is to have their family back. And also that everything is done so that is not repeated again for other families. So I have no standing in telling them anything. Um, because it is quite clear that they're right in what they they demand, they're right in what they see in seeing the risk and so on. Uh but I think us as political leaders, irrespective of the country we're from, we need to understand that the international rules are there for purpose. That it is unacceptable that children are dying when they're not at fault at all with anything that is happening. So maybe this strong political reaction of recognizing Palestine wouldn't have been needed if we would have had from Israel a reaction faster in allowing maybe more of the humanitarian aid or getting faster maybe to. To potential solutions that they see. But again, I cannot speak on behalf of other countries, nor can do I speak on behalf of what Israel should do other than what we think, as many of us within the European Union, not just that, that might help in the proper um direction. We're helping with what we can help. Romania is providing humanitarian flights for children undergoing cancer treatment. We have just had two weeks ago another one in that direction. We're continuing our conversations with Israel. We're continuing our conversations with the ambassador of Palestine in Romania, trying to do our little part in what can take us towards peace and saving human lives.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Of course, I wouldn't expect you to speak for other countries, and I do understand that many of the people involved in this conference believe it it could help lead to some conclusion in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

SPEAKER_02 30:58

And the conference, sorry, just want to mention this as well, because one of the reasons why we signed the statement is that beyond recognizing Palestine, which for us is a long-term, long-time decision, it has very clear statements against Hamas, also from the states that don't typically have had that type of firm stance. And we've considered that that as well needs to be endorsed.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Well, that is part of the New York Declaration. And um one question though about that disarmament is how do you how do you see this playing out? Do you believe that Hamas would voluntarily give up arms, something like you know, the Good Friday Agreement? Or um how do you think that that disarmament could be accomplished?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

No, I uh okay. On our side, we haven't seen any signs towards um an authentic step towards peace. And that's why it cannot be left just to the two countries in conflict. Because I don't think anyone now has the hope or the expectations that by themselves they would reach uh a peace agreement or a disarmament uh deal or even a ceasefire uh now. So I think it's quite clear that the international community needs to be involved. And in that sense, there have been countries that have taken the leadership to mediate uh this and we support them in that direction.

Recognition, Public Pressure, and Aid

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Well, turning to the future of the UN itself, because that is actually probably the dominant thread this week. As everyone knows, the high-level week is taking place under a dark cloud. You may not see literal dark clouds out of our window, but but in terms of the fiscal crisis, uh the severe budget cuts, we're talking about almost a fifth of the staff here at the headquarters uh possibly being let go or transferred also to other workstations. Um how does your government feel that the United Nations should adapt to this new era of, as they say, doing less with less?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

So we are strong supporters of multilateralism. Uh for us it's very important. Romania has been uh a part of it for since the beginning. And in the same time, we agree that not all resources have been spent properly, in the sense that we need better clarity on what are the types of resolutions, the types of decisions, the working formats. Um we are working on different working groups. We're also co-initiators of better ethical standards, clearer processes to elect the secretary general, for example, in the next phase. For us specifically, when we look at the history of UN, it's also very hard to understand how in 80 years we never had the Secretary General from Eastern Europe. Obviously, there are things that can be improved.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

And but oh, that is a holdover, I assume, from the Cold War, but the Cold War has ended some time ago. So I don't know if all of our listeners will be able to see your expression, but I think that was an agreement that the Cold War has ended some time ago. Um very true. Selecting a new Secretary General is a big uh step that will be taken within the next year. Obviously, Guterres is towards the end of his term. Do you think that there is time for an Eastern European Secretary General?

SPEAKER_02 34:34

I think I haven't found someone that can explain why we haven't had one until now. Uh in the sense that even now, as the attention is going to our region even more, I think it becomes clearer in not just in the United Nations. We're having the same conversation in the European Union and other formats, uh, that the voice of Eastern Europe not only needs to be louder in terms of what we see in our region, what we experiment, um, but also it is needed more in the global conversation.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Well, the common wisdom has been that it would be someone from Latin America next. It does circulate around, but that's more informal. So you're putting in a vote for Eastern Europe, and that's I'm just looking at the history of the UN, asking a question.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

And I think it's a valid question.

UN Fiscal Crisis and Governance Reform

SPEAKER_00 35:26

And that's it from the delegates lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests who've graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday or from time to time if we're on the road for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelegates lounge.com. We're a small team, so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly executive producer Frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.