The Delegates Lounge
Join us in The Delegates Lounge, an independent podcast on world affairs based in New York City at the United Nations, the hub of global insights in plain sight. We hope you’ll come back often to listen in on some fascinating conversations hosted by J. Alex Tarquinio, a veteran journalist who writes essays for Foreign Policy from her office across the hallway from the UN Security Council chamber.
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The Delegates Lounge
Exclusive: The United Nations Ambassador for Panama and Security Council President
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Join us for our talk with Eloy Alfaro de Alba, Panama’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations. Ambassador de Alba is serving in the monthly rotating presidency of the Security Council for the Month of August, and for this exchange, we sat down with him in the Security Council President’s office. From time to time, you may hear the roar of seaplanes landing on New York’s East River right outside of the expansive picture window.
Some 100,000 commercial vessels are plying through international waters on any given day, transporting around 80 percent of world commerce. During their journeys, many of these ships will pass through the Panama Canal. We couldn’t have a better guide to understanding the canal than Ambassador de Alba, who served on the board of directors of the Panama Canal Authority during the first decade after the country took control of the canal from the United States.
Beyond the canal, we explore Panama's influential ship registry, which has operated since 1917 and recently implemented new standards that will make it more difficult for some vessels engaged in criminal activity or sanctions evasion to fly the Panamanian flag. The Ambassador candidly discusses how Panama balances maritime commerce with combating these pressing concerns.
Much of our conversation with the Security Council President would have been right at home in one of our episodes of “Undercurrents,” our occasional series about the oceans and seas that unite us, and sometimes, divide us. But we also discuss key topics on the Security Council's packed agenda: From potential snapback sanctions on Iran to the intractable violence in Haiti.
Finally, our conversation ventures into the wilds of the Darién Gap, that roadless jungle on the Panamanian-Colombian border that forms the only break in the Pan-American Highway, where migrants risk everything in their northward journey. The Ambassador's perspective on this humanitarian challenge reveals the complex realities facing transit countries caught between migration's push and pull factors.
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Speakers:
J. Alex Tarquinio (host) is a resident correspondent at the United Nations in New York and co-founder of The Delegates Lounge podcast. @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X and @thedelegateslounge on Instagram.
Eloy Alfaro de Alba (guest) is the Permanent Representative of Panama to the United Nations. @EloyAlfaroAlba of @panamaonuny on X and @panamaonuny on Instagram.
Photo Caption and Credit:
Eloy Alfaro de Alba, Permanent Representative of Panama to the United Nations and President of the Security Council for the Month of August, chairs the Security Council meeting on non-proliferation. UN Photo/Manuel Elías; August 6, 2025, 10:04 a.m.
Intro to Eloy Alfaro de Alba, President of the UN Security Council
Speaker 1Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back. Today we're bringing you our conversation with Aloy Alfaro de Alba, panama's permanent representative to the United Nations.
Speaker 1Panama is serving in the monthly rotating presidency of the Security Council for August, and for this exchange we sat down with the ambassador in the Security Council President's office. From time to time you may hear the roar of seaplanes landing on New York's East River right outside of the expansive picture window. East River, right outside of the expansive picture window. It's the eve of Panama's signature event about maritime security, following up on a similar Greek-led debate during Greece's Security Council presidency in May that resulted in verbal fireworks, with Russia's representative referred to Baltic pirates. Estonia's defense minister later emphatically told our podcast that the Russians were the real pirates. If you haven't heard it yet, go back and listen to that episode to learn more. Incidentally, that was the first episode in our occasional series called Undercurrents, about the oceans and seas that unite us and sometimes divide us.
Speaker 1Some 100,000 commercial vessels are plowing through international waters on any given day, transporting around 80% of world commerce. During their journeys, many of these ships will pass through the Panama Canal. This unique waypoint connects the Caribbean Sea and the Pacific Ocean at the narrowest point of the Isthmus of Panama, with locks at each end mechanically lifting and lowering ships. The Panama Canal is one of a handful of key maritime choke points and, of course, president Donald Trump's saber-rattling has brought the reliable waterway into the bright gaze of the world's spotlight. Panama is also a rugged land bridge linking the North and South American continents, making it a byway for irregular migration through the Darien Gap. This roadless jungle is the only break in the Pan-American Highway, a network of roads otherwise connecting Alaska with Argentina. In addition to operating the canal, panama runs one of the world's most important shipping flag registries. Recently, the Panamanian registry has made it harder for older ships to register. As well as the environmental concerns, older ships are more likely to be engaged in criminality or sanctions avoidance. Panama's maritime debate in the Security Council has a distinctly Latin American flavor. The session is chaired by Panama's President, josé Raúl Molino, and features several key figures Arsenio Dominguez, secretary General of the International Maritime Organization, the UN agency that regulates shipping, who just happens to be a fellow Panamanian, ricardo Vasquez, the Panama Canal Authority's CEO, and Valdeci Urquiza, the Secretary General of the international police organization known as Interpol, who's a Brazilian.
Personal Experience in New York
Speaker 1The ambassador and I discussed other major issues before the Security Council, such as the intractable violence in Haiti and the possibility of snapback sanctions on Iran. The snapback mechanism automatically reimposes UN Security Council sanctions that were lifted under the 2015 Iran nuclear deal, known as the JCPOA. Any participant in that deal may trigger the re-imposition of UN sanctions if they believe that Iran is violating the agreement. Three of those participants France, Germany and the United Kingdom have given Iran a deadline of the end of this month to reach a deal or face snapback sanctions. While the impending UN Secretariat staff cuts and reforms of the UNAD initiative don't fall within the Council's purview, that's a preoccupation of all member states. Here's our conversation, so let me start by welcoming you, mr Ambassador. Thank you so much for joining us in the Delegates Lounge.
Speaker 2Thank you for this opportunity.
Speaker 1Well, thank you for making time for us as president of the Security Council this month. With everything happening around the world, I'd like to start by sort of welcoming you on your return to New York. As some of our listeners may be aware, you actually spent quite a lot of time here in your youth as a student at Columbia University. Before we talk about the Security Council program for this month and all you have planned, can you tell us a little bit about what it's like returning and what it was like being here as a graduate student or as a student?
Speaker 2I have always thought of myself as partly a New Yorker because I spent so much time here, as you well say, during my youth, which I regret to say was a long time ago.
Panama's Diplomatic Family Legacy
Speaker 2But I did attend Columbia University, which was my first choice. I was lucky enough to be able to be admitted and I was there for undergraduate Columbia College, then law school at Columbia Law School and then business school. But I went back to Panama for a year and then came back to finish to do business. So all in all it was about eight years at Columbia and in New York. So all in all it was about eight years at Columbia and in New York, which I always thought was an education of itself, because living in New York allows for a number of opportunities in cultural activities that perhaps I would not have been privy to if I had not lived in New York for such a long time. So I really missed New York. Thereafter, when I went back home to practice law which is what I've been doing most of my life, because I'm not a career diplomat, even though I've been ambassador to Washington and then now the UN because I miss New York, my wife and I used to come back to New York every year at least once or twice.
Speaker 1Did she have a connection? She didn't have a connection of her own to New York. She did.
Speaker 2As a matter of fact, she lived in New York longer than I did. She's younger than I am, of course, but she did live in New York for a long time because her father was ambassador of Panama to the United Nations as well, and, in fact, he was ambassador when the Security Council met in Panama in 1973. The Security Council met in Panama in 1973. And there was a resolution that was eventually not approved, but it was supportive of Panama's position concerning the Panama Canal.
Speaker 1Interesting. So, first of all, diplomacy obviously runs on both sides of your family, but I was going to ask you because you were here in the. I'm sorry to be dating you, but you were here as a student in the 1960s.
Speaker 2Exactly.
Speaker 1And witnessed all of that, and then you went back to Panama during the whole tumult over the Panama Canal. So you really saw a lot of history in the 60s and 70s.
Speaker 2Yes, I have, and thereafter a lot more history afterwards. That's true, and diplomacy is in our families. Actually, my wife's grandfather was Minister of Foreign Affairs, ambassador to Washington. My grandfather on my father's side was also Ambassador to Washington from Ecuador, because our family is originally from Ecuador and my great-grandfather was President of Ecuador and eventually assassinated.
Speaker 1My goodness. And what propelled them then to go from Ecuador to Panama.
Speaker 2My great-grandfather, who was Ecuadorian, was. Then. He was a general and became president of Ecuador twice. He was married to a Panamanian lady, so when he was in his political skirmishes, the family used to go in exile in Panama when they were being persecuted for political reasons in Ecuador. So when he was assassinated, the family was already on a boat and that boat, when they learned the news, left for Panama to avoid persecution against the alfaristas the alfaros who were supportive of my great-grandfather, and that's how the family was related to Panama. But my grandfather was Panamanian, my father was Ecuadorian by birth and I was the first one who was actually born in Panama.
Speaker 1So the first generation in Panama. So it is because of marriage and romance that your family became Panamanian, so both sides of the family are very heavily steeped in politics and diplomacy. And then, of course, you saw all of this in the 1960s, the activism very famously at Columbia. At that time, what did you think, taking all of that experience back to the discussions about the Panama Canal and eventually the agreement that came out? Because I do remember in the flag installation ceremony at the beginning of this year, you praising the late President Jimmy Carter, who had just passed. But what are your memories of that time?
Speaker 2Well, actually we in Panama we have lived that activism related to the Panama Canal issues for a long time and I, of course, lived through those years when the treaties were eventually signed.
The Panama Canal: History and Evolution
Speaker 2And it took a long time 22 years from the time the treaties were actually signed to the time that they were finally executed, because that was turn of the century. From 1999 was the last year of US administration and I had the privilege of being at the time a member of the first Panamanian board of directors of the Panama Canal, so I was sitting there during the ceremony when the canal administration was handed over to Panama. So I'm very, very familiar, particularly with the 1960s. When I was in high school we had a famous incident that I think I made a reference to during the flag installation ceremony. That caused riots in Panama. That was one of the one of the events that pivoted that situation and led eventually to the negotiations of the treaties, and then afterwards I had the privilege to be very active in preparing Panama from the legal standpoint and the constitutional standpoint to administer the Panama Canal.
Speaker 1Well, in fact I don't know if people realize, first of all because it is associated, at least in the United States, with Jimmy Carter's presidency, that there was such a long transition period up until the late 1990s and then since then, panama has invested heavily in the canal and also in the administration of the canal, and maybe because you've been so intimately and closely involved in this, maybe you can talk a little bit about that process. Sure.
Speaker 2The most interesting part, I think, as I was already a member of the board of directors the first Panamanian board of directors of the Panama Canal that was designated after the constitutional amendment that created the Panama Canal Authority. That would be the Panamanian entity that would manage the Panama Canal Canal Authority. That would be the Panamanian entity that would manage the Panama Canal.
Speaker 2It was very interesting first to participate in the drafting of the legislation the enabling legislation for the Panama Canal Authority, and then eventually to sit on the board and come to the decision that the canal was becoming obsolete in the sense that the locks were no longer able to transit vessels that were larger, that were being built larger, longer and wider, and also it wasn't able to deal with the number of transits that were being demanded and required every day.
Speaker 2So the decision was made to expand the Panama Canal by building an additional set of locks which were longer and wider than the original ones, to enable larger vessels to pass and more vessels to transit in a single day. So that was a very interesting undertaking that took a lot of studies from all sorts of different disciplines engineering, legal, administrative, etc. And then Panama undertook a process, including a referendum, because, according to the Constitution, any project that had to do with expanding the Panama Canal had to be approved first by the legislature and then by the people of Panama in a referendum, which was successfully approved, and I left the board of directors after a nine-year term before construction started on the project, but it was a very interesting experience.
Speaker 1And I've heard that there's actually fresh water is is used yes, which? I'm not being an engineer. I don't understand the importance of that I.
Speaker 2I don't know if it has to do with the equipment or I'm not an engineer either, but it isn't very difficult to explain that, uh, the canal is fed, and by fresh water that comes from rivers, uh that, and the water is uh administered by means of a lake, of a dam, and there is a lake through which vessels actually transit, do part of their transit is not in locks, because the locks are like an elevator.
Speaker 2They take the vessel up once twice to the level of the of the lake, and it's a fresh water lake, and then the vessel up once twice to the level of the lake, and it's a freshwater lake, and then the vessel transits on its own propulsion and on the other side it takes the stairs of the elevator back down. So it is, and then it's the same water resource that serves the population of the expanded city of Panama. So what has happened is and this was known when the third set of laws was approved and that project was started that it would be necessary eventually to find another source of water supply for the population of the enlarged city of Panama and for the operation of the Panama Canal. That has not been accomplished yet, and it's one of the projects that this particular government is interested in undertaking because the population of the city of Panama has grown beyond any expectation in terms of number of residents, and the canal also requires additional water supply, so that's one of the projects that what is the population now, or how much is it?
Speaker 1has it grown?
Speaker 2well, the population of the country is about four million and uh the the city of panama is uh close to half a million plus well, panama city and it's something, if you don't mind me saying this it's something of a company town, isn't it?
Speaker 1I mean, isn't the main business or the source of income, the canal fees and also vessel flagging and maritime industries, correct?
Speaker 2I wouldn't venture as far as saying that it's a company town. The Panama Canal Zone, which was the American area that was surrounding the canal, it was sort of a company town, but panama city has grown tremendously and it's a proper city and yeah, I don't mean yeah I understand I mean to be that it's.
Speaker 1It's got a main industry, I guess, is what I'm like. We associate detroit with auto making and maybe houston.
Speaker 2With the energy, I associate that with all maritime but you're right, uh, in the sense that the Panama Canal, of course, is very important to Panama, not only from the economics standpoint but from the service that the canal and Panama provides to the international community. And, as you just mentioned, we also have a ship registry which has been operating since 1917. And it has provided, again, a very important service to the world commercial community for ship owners and also for those who finance ship building and register their mortgages in the registry of Panama. And for many, many years it has been a very reliable registry, precisely because of the way the system is structured. You can always tell who the owner of the ship is, what the name of the company is, the details of the vessel and you can find out if there are any mortgages registered that affect the ship, because it's open to the public. So it's a very reliable legal system.
Maritime Security and Registry System
Speaker 1Now your signature event this month as president. Panama is hosting an event on maritime security on Monday and I know you've said that you plan on making that more open-ended, similar to what you'd consider it following on Greece's signature event on maritime security. You will let the topics be set by the speaker. That could range from the Baltic security, the Houthis, the Taiwan strike. In your professional capacity representing Panama, do you plan to make the Panama Canal an issue, because, of course, the Trump administration is has raised, shall we say, concerns about the potential of Chinese influence on the canal? Do you plan on raising that in your national capacity representing Panama?
Speaker 2No, absolutely not. The reason why maritime security was chosen by us as a signature event has nothing to do with that issue. The reason and I think I've explained it, I've mentioned it before is that Panama is a country that very much relates to the sea, to maritime activities. For one, we have the canal, but we're also bathed by two oceans, on both the north and the south. I don't want to get into historical debates, but presumably the Pacific Ocean was discovered from Panama.
Speaker 2Of course we know that there were residents of Panama originally who were very well aware of the Pacific Ocean they may not have had an understanding of the size of that ocean and who was on the other side, but that's one of the reasons that we very much identify with the oceans. And then, of course, we have the Panama Canal that, as I've just said, serves world commerce very well, first under the US administration and now under Panamanian, and we also have the ship registry that I have just mentioned. So it seemed that it was logical to choose as a signature event something that was related to maritime activities. The other focus is going to be on the misuse and the abuse of maritime activity for criminal purposes, transnational crime. As we know, many things are moved vessels, drugs, arms, all sorts of products, sometimes unfortunately in violation of Security Council sanctions.
Speaker 1So it's a very interesting. So it's more the illegal transport, because they're also taxed Also. I mean notably the Houthis, but there are other risks.
Speaker 2That's the other interesting thing but it isn't something that we, in our national capacity, are probably going to get into. It will be up to member states and, because it's an open debate, it will be open to member states and, because it's an open debate, it will be open to UN member states and it will be them who will to come up in that debate. But it won't be Panama, because we will be more like a referee of the debate rather than an active participant with protagonism in any of those issues and there are several and I prefer not to mention them individually.
Speaker 1But in your national capacity, you don't have any plans to push the Panama Canal issue.
Speaker 2Actually, in our national capacity, it will not be me who will be making a statement. It will be the president of Panama who is coming and he will be in a dual capacity he will be presiding over the meeting of the council and then he will make, as usual, a statement in his national capacity. But I don't believe, and I'm relatively certain, that that statement will have anything to do with bilateral relations between Panama and the United States and it probably, although it may consider in a generic way some of the conflicts that arise from maritime conflicts, that it will be a position that in any way politicizes the discussion that will be up to member states to bring to the fore.
Speaker 2That did happen some in the greek meeting, but greece also tried to be a bit hands-off but you know, actually, I think that's part of what the united nations is here for, uh, to have those debates out in the open so that everyone understands what they're all about, what the the issues are and the points of view of the various states. So I'm not stressed because of the possibility that some strong discussions may arise because of the different views of world powers or member states in connection with conflicts or controversies that arise concerning a right of navigation, freedom of navigation. There are also some interesting issues that have to do with areas in maritime law that are not very well defined and that may also come up in the debate.
Speaker 1Well, what about the law of the sea? There is a lot of discussion that some of it may be a bit dated, a tech I mean. Things, for example, like right of friendly passage. At the time, you know, it was just that's a right of friendly passage, that's a merchant ship passing your shore. But now there are greater risks.
Speaker 2I mean drones could come off, exactly, and that's the other interesting, uh, the other interesting subject that we hope will come out in the debate and it's in the title of our signature event on maritime security is all the innovation and the new technology that comes to play a role in maritime activity. So I think that for Panama, it was a logical choice of concept and that's the reason we chose it not to make a statement for Panama in any way other than, of course, take advantage of the opportunity to have Panama in a positive light, particularly because of the services that Panama as a country, as a bridge country, both land and maritime has served the world for many, many years.
Speaker 1Do you expect any outcome? I mean, are you trying to work on a statement, for example?
Speaker 2Frankly, we're not sure yet, but we don't think so because the positions are so divergent and it is such a complicated issue that I'm not sure that it would be worthwhile to make such an effort as would be required to come up with. Any product or statement may be counterproductive, because sometimes what you do is you encourage the controversies rather than solving them in a statement, trying to put everybody together, particularly the council. I'm not sure that we will be trying to make some sort of statement at the end. We'll see.
Speaker 1When you were talking about your flagging registry. This is now going back to your capacity representing Panama. There was a rule change, I think quite recently, that you're not going to flag vessels more than 15 years old, and can you talk about the reasons for that?
Speaker 2I mean, this goes into our undercurrents interest in yeah, there are a lot of issues that have to do with the uh, with the, with ship registration. That is one of them, and the you know sometimes some registries. Panama is such an old registry in terms of time 1917 that of course some of the vessels that were registered some time ago become old. The problem with that is that it has an effect on security of vessels and technology moves so fast and some of the issues that are involved, like environmental issues that have to do with vessels keeping up with technology in order that they may not affect the environment. So that's one of the reasons why Panama has taken steps to avoid or prevent registration of vessels that are too old, so that it doesn't become a registry of old vessels that then have environmental problems or security problems.
Speaker 1Well, it's, as you point out, it's among the oldest, it's among the biggest, it is a premier registry. Obviously there are environmental benefits to not having vessels older than 15 years, but there's also security, as you point out. It to get around sanctions Is one of the reasons to push those vessels towards the smaller registries where maybe they can be identified or sanctioned by regulators. Is there a reason to, I guess, push some of those older vessels that might be involved in the less savory activities to other registries might?
Speaker 2be involved in the less savory activities to other registries. Well, I'm not sure that I have enough information about numbers of vessels that are related to illicit activity and that are old, so I'm not sure that I dare make that connection.
Speaker 1I don't mean to say that all older vessels are involved in illicit, either the shadow fleet or criminality.
Key Security Council Issues
Speaker 2I understand, but there may be a higher percentage of them, and there are also other ways now because of technology, the advantages of technology that allow the governments to determine when a vessel is being involved in something that may be suspicious because of where they are at a particular point in time, where they're, how they're moving and of course it isn't. It isn't really easy to curtail that or to follow up on vessels. That's one of the things that Panama is, of course, trying to do as effectively as possible, because by the time that a vessel comes, comes up in a list or somebody alerts the Panamanian authorities that a vessel is up to something or was up to something, but is but is scheduled to go to Panama, transit the canal, for example happen and it isn't possible. The vessel gets sequestered before for commercial reasons that have nothing to do with the sanctions avoidance activities of the vessel. It's stranded in a given port where it's under subject to judicial procedure. The crew leaves because it has nothing to do except for just a few.
Speaker 2So it is complicated to follow up and also sometimes there's a lot of pressure to ship registries to cancel the registration of vessels that presumably have been involved in some illicit activity, whether it's criminal activity or whether it's sanctions avoidance. But that cannot so easily be done unless there is some sort of process or procedure that allows the owner to push back and provide evidence that there was some mistake in the, be that the vessel which was presumably doing something illicit in X place turns out that it actually was in a different port on that day and evidence can be provided. You just can't go and cancel the registration immediately because otherwise there would be lack of due process, which in most jurisdictions is a no-no. In the United States particularly Well.
Speaker 2that's where your experience as a lawyer would also be very familiar with that Panama cannot apply legislation or regulations that don't provide a minimum at least of due process, so that you don't end up doing things that are arbitrary and that may be not substantiated by the facts.
Speaker 1I thought with your flag registry you also even before the recent rule on the older than 15 years, that your flag registry did not register vessels that have been sanctioned, for example by the United States or Europe.
Speaker 2So that's already a rule. We don't do that and actually uh, recently uh, panama adopted a regulations that allow it to uh shorten the procedure uh for canceling the registration of a vessel that has been sanctioned, that's right or that has been listed uh, been listed in one of several lists of other countries where countries that are engaged in illicit activity or in sanctions violations are listed, but there is at least a minimum of due process that still has to be followed.
Speaker 1That's through the Panama Maritime Authority.
Speaker 2That's right.
Speaker 1I should pivot now. We should talk about some of the subjects that you think might come up this month that you have the presidency, and I suppose the first, most obvious, is the Palestinian question, because in September several states have said that they will or they plan to recognize Palestine, some UK, for example, with a caveat. Do you expect to have a session this term specifically dealing with that?
Speaker 2And it's very possible that it will come up during the month. We just had a meeting yesterday and focused on particularly the hostage situation, which, of course, was horrible to see. We were surprised by those images and photographs and videos of extreme cruelty to hostages and of course, we also are very much aware of the humanitarian crisis situation in Palestine, in Gaza, in general. So it's very probable that will cause another meeting to be held during the month.
Speaker 1And speaking in your capacity representing Panama has there been any discussion in political circles there about recognizing Palestine?
Speaker 2That I haven't seen that discussion in Panama recently. It's a very even though many countries, or some countries in Europe, are announcing that they are intent to recognize the state of Palestine in the near future. Of course, the situation in every country is different and in Panama it's a different situation and at this particular point I'm not sure that the situation is mature enough for a decision like that to be seriously considered for the moment.
Speaker 1I did want to ask you about, well, another specific security issue Iran's refusal to cooperate with the IAEA. That was a major concern a couple of months ago, of course. Do you expect that to come back before the Security Council?
Speaker 2I'm afraid. So you do Okay. Yeah, I think that looks like it may come back to the security council, uh, and in a not too distant future do you think they might call?
Speaker 1or the um jcpoa uh member.
Speaker 2Uh, you know, might call for a stamp back that's one of the possibilities, because it's there, and whether it's going to be called for or not we'll have to see, but I'm afraid that that is one of the issues that may come up before the Security Council.
Speaker 1So that's one that's not on the schedule now but may be scheduled by the end of the month, ok, you know, those things have a way of working themselves into the schedule. That's why you leave those gaps.
Speaker 2Our predecessors have suggested and recommended that we don't become too ambitious in filling up the space, because it has a tendency to fill up by itself.
Speaker 1Yeah, and but there's.
Addressing Mandates and Resource Constraints
Speaker 2There haven't been any recommendations for, I guess, convincing Iran to allow for inspections but their pressures being played, which, of course, would be the best result If it were possible to talk that through and to somehow negotiate it. It would be interesting and of course, the situation now is even more complicated as a result of those enormous bombings that were dropped on Iran dropped on Iran. Unfortunately, no negative environmental disaster occurred, which was one of the concerns when you mess around with places that have nuclear material, but I'm sure that that is very likely to be one of the things that may crop up in the month. As you know, there are a number of meetings that are simply mandated. They fall on the calendar in August because, according to the resolutions of those respective files, they're mandated to be considered by the council every three months, every six months, every year, every month, et cetera. So many of the meetings that are on the agenda and on the calendar of the council for the month of August are there because they're mandated meetings and of course, those do include some files related to the Middle East.
Speaker 2Some are briefings, some are consultations, some of them also relate to files in Africa, in Sudan, and there's several in the Middle East. There's one in Syria on the 21st. On the 21st there is one. There was one yesterday that actually wasn't originally in the program of work of Panama presidency, but it was worked in there, the request of Israel in this particular case, and interestingly, we've already had. By the time, we started a meeting that was unexpected, on Ukraine Russia conflict on the 1st of August, which was the first day of our presidency Unusual because usually there are no. We had a consultation with Sudan on the 4th, which was yesterday. We had another meeting, as I've just mentioned, a briefing on the Middle East, specifically on the hostage situation. So those are three meetings that were not in the scenario.
Speaker 1And Israel requested the meeting on the hostage situation because of those shocking photos that it showed.
Speaker 2That is right and precisely because there was no meeting on the 5th, we were able to schedule it. There are other interesting things that will be happening, particularly the UNIFIL extension.
Speaker 1Yes, but that is mandated.
Speaker 2the UNIFIL extension it's mandated, but it's very interesting and perhaps it will be a controversial issue on on and that's lebanon that's right that's I should explain, because they're hard to keep up with nations works on acronyms, and I'm the first one that was ignorant of many of them but the lebanon has obviously been a mandated renewal for a long time.
Speaker 1But you think it might be more controversial this time.
Speaker 2I have a feeling Okay, yes that that may be controversial and it will be very interesting because of that controversy. Let's see how that develops. I don't think that the mandate will be ended abruptly because I think that would have very complicated consequences, but it may be that some members of council prefer to have that mandate. Sunset.
Speaker 1I mean, there is a lot of talk and here's where we get to you in 80, although we have a lot of things to discuss.
Speaker 2But I was afraid of that.
Speaker 1Well, one thing I've just done this report looking at the mandates, and there is some talk on whether there are too many mandates. There are thousands of mandates, some of the very duplicative that you don't obviously review them all in the Security Council. Is there a sense that some of these mandates need to be sunset or perhaps combined if there are similar ones that were passed in different areas? If there are?
Speaker 2similar ones that were passed in different areas. I think that, in the context of UN80 and in the context of limited and reduced resources financial resources to sustain all of these mandates, I think it's natural, and perhaps it may even be healthy, for the various mandates to be reviewed. I'm sure that some of them are very, very important and there will be consensus in the council that they need to be extended. Some of them have already happened Haiti is an example in point, but some others. I think that some members of the council feel that some mandates were intended to work themselves out of a job and, of course, and that's hard to do or that can be hard to do.
Speaker 2It can be hard to do because also the other thing is that as time goes by, mandates may have a tendency to change, not formally, but in practice. The execution of the mandate begins to become modified. So there is some concern that mandates are maybe operating ultra the mandate. So I think that it may be healthy for this discussion, although it's upsetting and it's frustrating sometimes. And of course the lack of resources unquestionably will affect the way in which these mandates can be executed, because if you don't have financial support for the mandates and you cannot encourage countries to voluntarily provide that financial support, you don't have gasoline in the tank to run the automobile.
Speaker 1Well, that's where there may be more of a perception. Obviously, the Secretariat is facing some serious belt tightening. I mean, there will be staff cuts, but some of those may or may not be felt on the ground in the in the countries, whereas cutting or even combining mandates could be felt, you know, in the real world, outside of this sort of ivory tower on.
Speaker 2Yes, I'm not an expert on financing mandates or on financing on the ground operations.
Speaker 1Guy Ritter, who's leading this review, when he did the press briefing about it he mentioned that some of the mandates, the reports, they simply looked at the number of downloads and some of them have very few downloads. So that's kind of how one, one measure that they're looking at to gauge the interest in that mandate. I just wondered how much people in the Security Council talked about this, maybe even outside the formal meetings.
Speaker 2Yes, that's right. I think everybody's talking about this because it's evident that something needs to change and that there are not going to be enough resources to finance everything that the UN has been doing in the same way that it has been done.
Speaker 1Well, if we could talk about Sudan. Sudan has accused the UAE of having Colombian mercenaries fight alongside the RSF. Is this something that the council would discuss? I mean, this seems to be within its purview.
Speaker 2I think it would. In fact there was a discussion, but it was in a consultations meeting which, of course, are not public, and the reason they're not public is that then you can get into a discussion that is more sincere. But I'm sure that sort of issue and file will be discussed I don't know specifically if the case of Sudan or when, within the month of August, but it's one of those because of the, but you think it would be discussed in an open meeting.
Speaker 1I understand consultations are very important, so you can.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's another interesting area to delve on.
Speaker 1I should tell the listeners the consultations are behind. It's pretty evident by it. Consultations are behind. It's pretty evident by it, but they're behind closed doors.
The Humanitarian Crisis in Haiti
Speaker 2They're not broadcasted to the public and no record is made of them that could be broadcasted eventually. So council members are better able to engage in a discussion and ask questions of the briefers that the briefers may feel more free to answer in that confidential space.
Speaker 1I should say Sudan has made this accusation. Uae has completely rejected the accusation. So where you have the two parties, an accusation and a denial, that's something that you would discuss in consultations generally.
Speaker 2Well, I think in the case of Sudan, the latest issue that brought about the meeting actually was that announcement of an alternative parallel government that would seem to fragment the country and the council seems to be very concerned about that possibility, because whenever there are two factions of a conflict that are fighting it out militarily, that concerns the council, and when the consequence may be the fragmentation of a country, it's even more concerning to council members. So I think that was the aspect that was basically the subject of this particular meeting and the concern that brought about the meeting.
Speaker 1Well, you could argue there's already been fragmentation with South Sudan, so this would be further fragmentation. That's right.
Speaker 2And the other aspect that concerns council members, of course, is the effect that different factors have in the economic development and the development of a country, because climate change is one of them, because it changes the way that farmers and agricultural can carry on and it makes people move from one place to another, and of course, that always has consequences that end up in some sort of a conflict and eventually, when these factors join to have an effect on the economy of a given country, the result is generally that social services are lacking and are not provided. The humanitarian crisis develops because there is famine, the people are hungry or thirsty, and eventually it can force some sort of an explosion or an implosion in a country and then get into an armed conflict, and sometimes the armed conflict creates further complications that make the situation of the country worse.
Speaker 2We've certainly seen that in Sudan, that's right and it happens in other places as well. The other issue that we're interested in because of the geographic proximity to us and we feel that it is part of our region and look at the effect of the armed conflict in Haiti the effect on children. The children in armed conflicts are projected to the situation in Haiti, in particular, because there's a lot of information that is very disquieting concerning violence against children, forced recruitment of children underage Haitians by the gangs, forced recruitment of children underage Haitians by the gangs by the gangs, and sexual violations, sexual violence against youngsters. It is a the idea is to take a look at the situation in Haiti, which the council and nobody else has been able to propose a solution to. That would be feasible.
Speaker 1And when does the Haiti does that come up for review?
Speaker 2I forget when it comes up for review, but it is this month. But we feel very uncomfortable, from a Panamanian standpoint, presiding over the council, not to have a discussion during the month of August. That may also put some pressure on everybody else to see if, seriously, we can come up with some sort of a solution that would begin to solve the crisis in Haiti. The violence, the gangs that are armed, the armed supply, how it happens and where does it happen from and how do they get there.
Speaker 1And it's the worst violence and worst humanitarian crisis in this hemisphere.
Speaker 2That's right, and of course, the situation in Haiti is very complicated. The political aspects are complicated. The institutional the political institutions are practically inexistent, or the political institutions and practically inexistent. There must be a way to move the country towards some sort of constitutional order. There has to be an election, but you can't have an election when the insecurity is what it is now. So you have to deal with the insecurity first and somehow engage those gangs, and if you engage them, it would have to be with some sort of force. So it's really one thing is linked to the other.
Migration Challenges Through Panama
Speaker 1Well, of course, another issue that's sensitive in the Americas is the immigration issue. You're not a destination country, but you are a transit country. Yeah, and you have well for your country, I guess, the real problem of the Darien Gap. Do you see that as an issue of immigration coming under the purview of the Security Council, or is that security or humanitarian, because it actually straddles both?
Speaker 2Yeah, it straddles several. Actually, the problem is not the diary and gap. The problem is the supply and the demand trying to improve their lives, looking for opportunities and jobs, running away either from economic crisis in their own countries, everywhere, not only in the region and not only in South America, because we've seen that sometimes they come from places in other continents, come from places in in other continents and the places that they want to go to. When you say that we are not an immigration attractive country, we're not the. The problem of panama and it is partly because of its geographic location in the center of the americas that, and not only in immigration but in a number of other areas as well, we are between production and consumption.
Speaker 2In the case of narcotics and drugs that is the problem for Panama. Panama is not really a drug, it's not a drug-producing country and it is not a drug drug consuming country to any significant extent, but it happens to be on the road in the way between the production, or some of the production, to the south and the consumption to the north, and immigration is the same thing. So people flow through there. Fortunately because of policies of our current government and president mulino, and combined with the way that in the united states whether we could be critical of some aspects or not, and that's not for me to do the policies in the united states has always decreased the incentive for people to flow to the United States and that has reduced between one thing and another. The policies of both countries have been, to a certain extent in the last few months, been able to reduce that flow.
Speaker 1So you have already noticed a difference.
Speaker 2Yes, unquestionably noticed a difference that there's unquestionably so. For us in panama it's really not a an issue that that attracts our attention for purposes of discussing it in the security council. And, of course, but many, I'm sure, countries on the council will say that that is not a security council issue, that it needs to be dealt with elsewhere, unless for some reason, the relation between drugs and a conflict is exacerbated in a particular critical way.
Speaker 1You clearly are a trans opponent. It's interesting to see that you're already noticing a difference in the flow.
Speaker 2Yes, I don't have top of mind, I don't have the figures, the statistics, but it has been very dramatic the way that the flow has been reduced, Migrants trying to transit and, of course, if they're transiting from somewhere in South America, not because they're originally from there but because that's the way they get into the region and they try to walk their way through Panama and of course that forces them to go through the Darien Gap. There's a problem for us and it does produce some humanitarian aspects and some human rights aspects.
Speaker 1And also security aspects.
Speaker 2And security aspects and environmental aspects.
Speaker 1And environmental.
Speaker 2So it's a complicated issue and I think that we're very pleased and happy that it seems to be reducing.
Speaker 1But it is a lot for you to deal with as a relatively small population, to deal with the dairy and GAP.
Speaker 2And the dairy and GAP really is an interesting place, not only because of the exuberance of the jungle, which makes transiting it even more perilous, but also because it's in my personal opinion. It's a contradiction in terms. Personal opinion, uh is is a contradiction in terms. It is what unites the south of the continent with the, with the north, uh, but it's gapped uh, it hasn't been opened uh, to traffic uh, by car, by vehicles, uh, so it's a kind of a contradiction well it it's very.
Speaker 1I mean, I've never been there, but from everything you hear it's very rugged, very hazardous terrain.
Speaker 2Yes, but that doesn't mean that you couldn't have a road that connects the north to the south.
Speaker 2That perhaps would be of benefit to commerce flowing from and to South America, between South America and Panama, central America and the North.
Speaker 2But of course there's always the concern, many concerns One is security concerns and the other one is health security concerns, because there are some diseases that could then flow from one place to the other, from one place to the other. But to me it's interesting that, because Panama sees itself as a kind of a bridge, not only a land bridge but also a maritime bridge through the canal, and it has that gap in Darien, which is really not a very wide area geographically, but it connects to South America At the same time, that connection is lacking, and that's the discussion that we've been having as Panamanians for a long time. Sometimes some people feel inclined to do one thing and then at other times they feel inclined to do one thing and then at other times they feel inclined to do something else. But I think that there's an interesting future there if it's well done, because it would literally join the two continents, north and the south but also something that you would then have to secure, perhaps even more so.
Speaker 1That's right that's right.
Speaker 2But while we're at it, sometimes it is criticized that there is not enough security to prevent abuses and sexual violence incidents of those migrants that are flowing through the area. But at the same time, you know what resources would you need to provide sufficient police security and military security to make sure that?
Speaker 1But is it right that that all falls to a smaller country like Panama? I guess that's where I wondered if it should be under the purview of not necessarily the Security Council, but some international agency.
Speaker 2Well, I think your, your question is suggesting the answer. Of course it's not fair, but but that's the way the cookie crumbles and it comes with the territory and, in our case, but but you, but you bring a point that I would I forgot to mention, but I was thinking about as we were, uh, talking that the migrant issue is an expensive one. I mean it's expensive because you have to house them and feed them and provide medical assistance to them. I mean there are a number of things that are involved in receiving that migration. Even though it doesn't want to stay with you, fortunately it wants to flow up north.
Speaker 1Right, but you still have obligations during the transit, of course. Yeah.
Concluding Thoughts and Sign-off
Speaker 2Of course, and sometimes they come or generally they come without too many resources and then at the same time it becomes a business for those who organize that transit, and it's an interesting issue. Glad that the incentive is reduced.
Speaker 1Well, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 2Thank you. I think we have indeed covered a lot of topics and I appreciate and thank you very much for the opportunity.
Speaker 1Well, thank you. I particularly enjoyed hearing about your background, your family history and also your involvement in the early days with the Panama Canal. It's very evocative.
Speaker 2Thank you very much.
Speaker 1Thank you for joining us at the Delegates Lounge.
Speaker 3And that's it from the Delegates Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who've graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or, from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicatesloungecom. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly, executive producer, frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.