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The Delegates Lounge
Estonia's Defense Minister on Baltic Security: Undercurrents Part 1
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Welcome to the first edition of "Undercurrents," a new ongoing series in The Delegates Lounge podcast about the oceans and seas that unite us, and sometimes, divide us.
In this episode, we're joined by Estonian Defense Minister Hanno Pevkur. He explains what's happening beneath the surface of maritime confrontations in the Baltic Sea.
Rising tensions have transformed this crucial waterway into a geopolitical flashpoint, with Russia deploying military assets to escort its so-called "shadow fleet" of aging oil tankers. With approximately 60% of Russian oil exports traveling through Baltic waters, these maritime routes have become critical to Moscow's ability to sustain its military operations in Ukraine.
The May incident involving the unflagged tanker "Jaguar," which later acquired a flag and changed names, exemplifies Russia's aggressive strategy. The incident quickly escalated to Russia violating Estonian airspace with a fighter jet. A week later, Russia's ambassador to the United Nations referred to "Baltic pirates" in a polemic during a UN Security Council session.
We caught up with Minister Pevkur right before this week's meeting of NATO defense ministers in Brussels, so we also discussed NATO's defense spending and priorities.
Join us for this riveting conversation that navigates the choppy waters of Baltic security and explores how maritime tensions are reshaping the global security landscape. What happens in these northern waters could have ripple effects far beyond Europe's shores.
Subscribe to The Delegates Lounge for more critical insights into the maritime undercurrents shaping global politics, economics, and environmental security.
Speakers:
J. Alex Tarquinio (host) is a resident correspondent at the United Nations in New York and co-founder of The Delegates Lounge podcast. @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X and @thedelegateslounge on Instagram.
Hanno Pevkur (guest) is the Minister of Defense of the Republic of Estonia. He is an Estonian politician and lawyer who previously served as his country’s Minister of the Interior, Minister of Justice, and Minister of Social Affairs. @HPevkur of @MoD_Estonia on X.
Credits:
Music: Adobe Stock
Photos: Adobe Stock/Yaroslav. An oil tanker on the blue sea. Headshot (in some formats): Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Estonia.
Welcome to Undercurrents Series on Maritime Security
J. Alex TarquinioWelcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back.
Introduction to Hanno Pevkur Estonia's Defense Minister
J. Alex TarquinioYou're joining the first episode of our new ongoing series called Undercurrents, about the oceans and seas that unite us and sometimes divide us. We're launching Undercurrents right before the United Nations World Oceans Day on June 8th. In future episodes in this series, the Delegates Lounge will explore the oceans from all angles. In this episode, we're focusing on rising tensions in one particular corner of our watery world the Baltic Sea. Our guest today is particularly well positioned to elucidate this subject for us.
UN SC Voiced Disputes over Jaguar Incident and UNCLOS in the Baltic
J. Alex TarquinioWe caught up with Estonian Defense Minister Hanno Pevkur right before the start of this week's Defense Minister's meeting at NATO's headquarters in Brussels. We last spoke with him on the sidelines of NATO's 75th anniversary summit in Washington last year. A recent UN Security Council debate exposed mounting friction in the Baltic Sea. Greece was chairing the Security Council in May and made it clear well in advance that their signature event about maritime security would be a top priority. The diplomatic envoys of Russia and Estonia chose to focus on an incident in the Baltic Sea the previous week involving an unflagged tanker then called "Jaguar, although the ship subsequently acquired a flag from the Comoros and changed its name to Blint. Here's a soundbite of the Russian ambassador expounding on the incident through a UN simultaneous translator.
Russia's UN Envoy, through a translatorThis is why UNCLOS contains a closed and rather limited list of situations in which a vessel flying a foreign flag may be stopped for inspection. You won't find, neither in the list nor in the convention as a whole, a single mention of the so-called Shadow Fleet. We'd therefore like to remind you, and remind the newly minted Baltic pirates and their EU cheerleaders, that stopping a vessel on any other grounds not listed in the convention is, by definition, a grave attack on the freedom of navigation and the right of peaceful passage or transit passage.
J. Alex TarquinioLater that afternoon, as you'll hear next, estonia's representative described the incident in minute detail, while emphasizing his country's duty, as a coastal state, to protect the coastline and undersea cables.
Estonia's UN representativeOn the 13th of May, a tanker named Jaguar, without a flag and without insurance, entered the Estonian economic zone. The vessel refused Estonian authorities' request to inspect it in accordance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which grants states the right to inspect ships without a nationality. While the vessel continued its route, a Russian fighter jet deliberately violated Estonia's airspace, escorting the vessel to Russia's waters. This dangerous incident proved in Turelia that there is a clear-cut link between the Shadow Fleet and Russia that there is a clear-cut link between the Shadow Fleet and Russia.
J. Alex TarquinioMaritime experts say the so-called Shadow Fleet has been created to circumvent sanctions and a price cap on Russian energy exports and has grown exponentially since Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine more than three years ago. The ships described as being part of the Shadow Fleet are often old and poorly maintained tankers employed to transport Russian oil, gas and petroleum products. They may be uninsured, flagless or flying a flag of convenience. In short, they are an accident waiting to happen. Estimates vary widely as to the number of ships involved, ranging from several hundred up to 2,000. An expert we recently interviewed for Undercurrents is tracking around 700 of these tankers, which are variously described as the Shadow Fleet, the Dark Fleet, the Gray Fleet or the Parallel Fleet, whatever you call it. Without this fleet, russia's war economy would be seriously diminished. Yet this isn't the only threat to maritime security in the Baltic Sea, where four undersea cables have been damaged in recent years. Vital undersea infrastructure for energy and communications crisscrossing this sea, not to mention other strategic bodies of water elsewhere in the world, are vulnerable to anchor dragging or sea drones. The rapid advances in drone technology create new risks above, below and at the waterline.
J. Alex TarquinioMinister Pevkur arrives in Brussels with a thorough understanding that conflicts on land can be intertwined with the oceans and seas. Estonia's coastline, which stretches along the Baltic Sea, the Gulf of Finland and the Gulf of Riga, is longer than its land borders with Latvia and Russia. These waters have become increasingly militarized in recent weeks. Since the Jaguar incident in May, russia has been sending naval escorts for tankers and it briefly detained a Greek-owned ship called the Green Admire.
Persistent Threats in the Baltic and the Jaguar Incident Explained
J. Alex TarquinioWe first spoke with Minister Pevkur before the June 4th meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group, known informally as the Ramstein Group, stemming from the first meeting held at the U. S. Air Base in Ramstein, Germany, under the Biden administration. The U. S. led this effort to arm Ukraine, but now the United Kingdom and Germany have taken up the helm. Indeed, us led this effort to arm Ukraine, but now the United Kingdom and Germany have taken up the helm. Indeed, us Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has decided to skip the meeting, although he will be in Brussels the next day to push the Allies to raise their defense spending to 5% of gross domestic product, the GDP. The NATO defense ministers will be gathering around the table on June 5th, ahead of the NATO leaders' meeting in the Hague later this month, given that the Estonian defense minister is currently in Brussels meeting with his counterparts. We went on to discuss NATO's defense spending and priorities. Here's our conversation, Mr. Minister. Thank you so much for joining us today in the Delegates' Lounge. We are honored to have you.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, thank you very much for inviting me.
J. Alex TarquinioMinister, in recent weeks, we've seen a dramatic escalation of maritime tensions in the Baltic Sea and Gulf of Finland, with Russia now employing warships and fighter jets to escort its so-called shadow fleet or dark fleet, however you want to refer to it and Estonia has consequently been redirecting some maritime traffic away from traditionally safe routes. How does Estonia assess the risk of escalation and what actions are you taking to ensure the safety of shipping in these congested and increasingly militarized waters?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, first of all, for decades we've been living in an environment where we knew that sea is a safe environment and the seabed is a safe environment. Unfortunately, in the last couple of years we've seen that Russia is using also seabed and the sea for different type of actions. Let's say we cannot say directly attacks, because we still are in the investigation process. Or two weeks ago we saw that they brought it to the new level that they used also their military assets to escort one of these Shadow Fleet vessels into Russian waters, and also they've been very, let's say, provocative with different assets towards different countries. So we saw some of the actions against Latvia and Venezuela, we saw that they were circulating in the Polish waters and in many other cases on the Baltic Sea. We've seen that they are very hostile, are we concerned.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterSo I would say that we are pragmatic, that we are monitoring very closely all the vessels, especially those vessels which are in the list of the Shadow Fleet, and, of course, if needed, we will take the actions. And also we raise that question on the international level, because, at the end of the day, we are all responsible for the safe sailing, for the environmental questions and, of course, for the connections, because connections are the ones which are very important for all the countries, not only here in the Baltics.
J. Alex TarquinioThere's been some mixed reporting on the recent Jaguar incident. Did Estonia attempt to board the unflagged vessel off your coast, and was that access denied?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterI can confirm that this was a Russian propaganda, that we had an attempt to go on board. We didn't go. We didn't attempt, we didn't have a wish to go on board. We contacted the vessel, as the maritime law says. The UNCLOS article I think it's 110, says very clearly that if the vessel doesn't have a flag, there is a need to respond and to check this. So this is exactly what we did and when we saw that there is no threat, also to our critical infrastructure, then we just escorted that ship out of the Estonian waters. So there was no intention to go on board and this is purely Russian propaganda.
Russia's Accusation of Piracy and Interpretation of UNCLOS on Sanctions and Rite of Passage
J. Alex TarquinioWell, in fact, during the recent UN Security Council open debate on maritime security on May 20th, I noted the Russian ambassador's reference to quote-unquote Baltic pirates and his challenge to the legitimacy of sanctions against the Shadow Fleet. He said this wasn't explicitly defined as unclosed the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea. So perhaps this is where a lot of the story about attempting to board the Jaguar originated. What's your response to that? For example, that narrow reading of the definition of maritime law?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterFor example, that narrow reading of the definition of maritime law. Well, I also suggest Russians to read the UNCLOS and it says very clearly that if the flag, or if the vessel doesn't have the flag, there is a right for the military vessels or for the border vessels to approach and, if necessary, also to go on board. We didn't do that because we didn't see that it's necessary, because our main goal is to protect the critical infrastructure. But nevertheless the safe sailing is something we care about a lot and internationally we have to take care of that.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWhen somebody is saying pirates, then the pirates are Russians because they are using the unflagged and sanctioned vessels to export their oil out of Russia and using for that the Baltic Sea. 60% of the Russian oil goes through the Baltic Sea. And when we take also the environmental question, then most of these sanctioned vessels have very bad condition and when we take this condition, then we all understand that even the environmental risk is huge what these vessels pose to the Baltic countries and to the sea environment. So this is why my suggestion to everyone, using also this opportunity of registering those vessels, not to do that, because also when we take this jaguar case when it came into our waters. Then when we take this Jaguar case, when it came into our waters then just before that they basically were, I don't know, thrown out or they were missing the flag. We all understand that there are different factors we have to take care of.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterAlso this Jaguar case. Then when they arrived Russian waters, then then miraculously they found a new country which was not Gabon but was Gormoz, and then they had a new flag. So when they started to travel back from Russia then they had already a new name for the vessel, which was Blink, not Jaguar anymore, and they had a new flag not Jaguar anymore, and they had a new flag. So that means that you know there are still countries in the world who are giving very easily the flags and take the responsibility of the Shadow Fleet together with Russia.
J. Alex TarquinioYeah, you're talking about flag hopping there, which is interesting, but the law of the sea UNCLOS it's really based on the right of innocent passage, the idea that the ship can sail by your coastline as long as it's not stopping and still have a right of innocent passage. The idea that the ship can sail by your coastline as long as it's not stopping and still have a right of innocent passage. But given the technological advancements I mean drones could take off from ships in a matter of seconds Does that still make sense? The right of innocent passage Does it still hold relevance in the current context?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense Ministerit still hold relevance in the current context. Well, as I see it, of course we have to look what we can do internationally, but we also have to understand that UNCLOS is not the convention which regulates Baltic Sea. It regulates all the world seas and this is why it's not just that that we will just change the UN clause for that, but definitely this is the question for international community how to regulate this, especially looking at the security point of view and looking at the defense point of view that we need to defend our countries, and if there is a threat to our national security, if there is a threat to our integrity and independence, then there should be a possibility also to act. And this is exactly what we need to discuss internationally.
Air Space Violation and Possible Request of NATO
J. Alex TarquinioWell, of course, Jaguar, there was an escalation also because Russia did violate your airspace briefly, for about a minute, but it was with a fighter jet. And this is not even the most recent incident, by the way. Since then there's been the Green and Meyer incident. Will you ask your counterparts to invoke Article 4 of NATO to request consultations, especially regarding Russia's recent airspace violation?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterNo, we are not planning to start Article 4, because we all understand that Russia is testing the threshold of Article 4, article 5 all the time, but we are calm and we have to keep ourselves calm and to react proportionally. So, as I said, we've seen in the last weeks and months many different attempts where Russia is testing us and of course, we all understand that you cannot react or overreact to every incident.
J. Alex TarquinioDoes the Shadow Fleet raise questions, though, about the effectiveness of financial sanctions imposed on Russia If there's willingness by other entities to assist Moscow in evading those sanctions?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, this is why we are also discussing about the new sanction packages.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterThis is why we are also discussing the secondary sanctions and of course, we have to understand that those sanctions are imposed by European Union, united States and Canada and the United Kingdom, but there are still many countries in the world who are ready to cooperate with Russia. So it's rather the question that what is the role of the United Nations? When we take also the own clause, then this is the convention which was approved by the United Nations. When you take also the own clause, then this is the convention which was approved by the United Nations. So, unfortunately, we see that there are not many, you know, actions or steps foreseen by the United Nations and there are many countries who are still supporting Russia. So this is why, of course, we will continue our work also towards this that we will have better understanding what that war in Ukraine which is conducted by Russia really means and what are the consequences of that war, russian oil, gas and petroleum products, possibly from the shadow fleet, possibly evading even these price caps, if they do ship to ship transfers at sea, for example.
J. Alex TarquinioThose countries are under some criticism, but are you arguing for secondary sanctions, and is that something that you are bringing to the European Union?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, our minister of foreign Affairs is dealing with that. It's not the direct matter of the Minister of Defense, but nevertheless we all understand that it's not only Estonian wish or Baltic countries wish or the Nordic Baltic wish. So we have to be very clear here that this is an international question and it's about the rules of law and it's about the rules-based world, Ukraine. And when we take also the votings in the United Nations, then we see that there are countries who are pro-Russia, and we also understand that. You know, against UN principles, against those values we consider to be important, against this, Many countries are still in favor of Russia. So it's a long way to persuade and to convince every country that Russia is conducting a war of aggression in Ukraine and of course we will continue doing that.
Response to Flag States Registering Sanctioned Vessels in the Shadow Fleet
J. Alex TarquinioSo criticism may not be enough if the country agrees with Russia, but what about the other countries perhaps giving aid? You mentioned the flag states and the flag hopping between states. Should flag states be more actively weeding out the shadow fleet or denying flags to them?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense Ministerdenying flags to them. Of course I would like to see that no country will issue the flag for the vessels listed in the sanctions list or the shadow fleet list. But the reality is that we even do not have all the vessels which we know that are part of the shadow fleet listed in the sanctions list of the European Union or United Kingdom. So still, we need to work on that. It's not the one day result what we can achieve, so we will continue pushing for that.
J. Alex Tarquinioof course, Now you raise a good point. What about the potential involvement of Western companies in the formation of the shadow fleet? I mean you mentioned that some countries obviously have sided with Russia or remain neutral in the formation of the shadow fleet. I mean you mentioned that some countries obviously have sided with russia or remain neutral in the un general assembly. But what about those that have voted with ukraine? But they still have companies that, for example, are selling older vessels to russia, provide the provision of equipment and services to the shadow fleet. Does that require more scrutiny?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, to be very honest, you know, I believe that every country who is doing that has to answer to these questions. We know that Russia should be also take under the responsibility, or Russia should take the responsibility also about the shadow fleet, because they are using it unlawfully to export its oil to the world. But again, there are too many players to answer all these questions. It's not only the countries, it's also different organizations like OPEC which can make certain steps, make certain steps. So, as I said, we're looking for these options on diplomatic level and we're trying to see what we can do more.
J. Alex TarquinioNow speaking of the diplomatic level, with the US, uk and EU having distinct, sometimes overlapping, sanction regimes on individual ships in the shadow fleet and there's some disagreement as to how many. There are 300, 500, 700. It depends on who you ask. But does this structure of the overlapping sanctions, does that enhance or diminish the overall pressure on Russia?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, my understanding is very clear that the United Kingdom, united States and European Union can work more closely here together, and our aim should be very, very clear Every vessel which Ukraine has identified as a shadow fleet vessel should be under these sanctions.
Russia's Frozen Assets Decision
J. Alex TarquinioThere's the sanctions, but then there's also the pressure that's been applied through the frozen Russian assets estimates of 200, 300 billion in Europe. Russian assets estimates of 200 to 300 billion in Europe. Simply having those frozen assets implies some pressure on Russia. Once you use them, you no longer have them. Of course, you can't have your cake and eat it too, but what would Estonia like to see done with them?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWe've been very clear, of course, here all the time that as Russia has to take the responsibility of all these damages and crimes, then the frozen assets as Russia has to take the responsibility of all these damages and crimes, then the frozen assets should be given to Ukraine and they should use them as they need to use them Is it for defending the country or rebuild the country. So reparations and restorations are an important step also to go through during the peace negotiations and, of course, we have been always supporting that the frozen assets should be used for Ukraine.
J. Alex TarquinioBut is that in the prosecution of the fighting of the war? Or do you want to see them held until the end of the war and then used for reconstruction? Or do you want to see them as a bargaining chip, perhaps at the end of the war? In other words, spend now or save for later?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, it's not worth bargaining when you don't have the control over them. So I would say that we should release them as soon as possible, or as much as we can for Ukraine, and then it's up to Ukraine to decide what to do with this money. So this is the easiest way to handle this situation.
J. Alex TarquinioI see. So release them to Ukraine and let Ukraine decide whether they're best bent on immediate war needs.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterBecause we've used the meaningful profit from the frozen assets to deliver the ammunition. So we've done that already, basically that we've used the interest of the frozen assets to help around 50 billion a year. When we talk about 300 billion, then this would have given a huge chance for Ukraine for a long time ago already to win the war and even to restore the country.
NATO Defense Spending Targets
J. Alex TarquinioAnd when you say we, you're talking about the European Union. Yes, In light of the success of Operation Spiderweb, obviously a hugely audacious plan and execution, but now you know that we reflect on it. Does this indicate a broader vulnerability in countries with advanced weapon systems from the low cost drone technology technology? Is Estonia worried about this, I mean, given the neighborhood that you're in, and also, is this something that you expect to be discussing over the next?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense Ministercouple of days at the DATOM, a defense ministers meeting in Brussels. Well, first of all, we have new regional plans and we have defense plans for NATO. Secondly, we've decided to invest a lot more into defence and we are giving all we can to defend our country, defend our nation. And I believe that you know the biggest topic for the next couple of weeks will be inside of NATO how we can reach the new level of defense spendings inside of NATO, because the new defense plans and also the capability targets are exactly for that, because it's not only about the percentage but it's about the capabilities. And to achieve these capabilities, we need to have more money. So Estonia is very clear here. So we need to invest more. We need to do it very quickly, not to take a lot of time for that. So this will be the main focus for upcoming weeks.
J. Alex TarquinioWhat does Estonia consider an appropriate target? Obviously, you spend one of the most of any of the NATO countries, but some of the countries haven't even gotten to 2%. Are you going to push your counterparts at NATO for 3.5%, 5%, some other figure?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, we know the target. It was said by President Trump some months ago and he said very clearly that NATO should invest at least 5%. Estonia will do that already next year. We will not take five or ten years for that and we will go from basically 3.3 level to 5.4 level already in one year. So we will increase our defense spendings more in one year as many have in the last years.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterSo it's not a question. As I said, yes, the 5% should be the goal, but we also understand that to reach that, we just need to see of that what the capabilities are, what we need to have to defend our countries, to defend the alliance, and when we calculate the capabilities cost, then we will see that even 3% is not enough. So this is why, of course, we are pushing the highest number we can get from the Hague and of course we would be happy to see 5%. But then when it's 3.5, of course we will not fight against 3.5. But we would like to see that it will go higher, as President Trump also has said, to 5%.
J. Alex TarquinioSo you concur with the 5% target. It's already something you plan to do as a NATO member.
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterNot only to plan to do, but we will do that. So this is a difference, so we are not discussing that anymore. It is decided and we will go to 5.4% next year.
J. Alex TarquinioNow, what's more important though? The actual target figure or how the money is spent, because it's a big difference, of course, if it's spent, for example, on personnel or weapons systems, and perhaps also the choice of weapons systems expensive, or we've been talking about some low cost, newer technologies. Is it more important how low-cost newer technologies? Is it more important how the money is spent, or is it simply important now just to get government's budgeting to get to that higher figure?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterAs I said, it's about the capabilities, and it is important to understand that these capabilities are not taken from the clouds. These capabilities have been put on paper by the SACEUR and his team and have been very carefully calculated and very carefully selected. What do we need to have to defend the alliance and and to give the best security guarantee for our people? So when all the countries will agree in in two days in nado in brussels on defense capabilities, then we all have also the targets where to invest the money. That means also personnel. That means also personnel. That means also new equipment. That means also the new emerging techs. So this is everything we need, and of course, we know that there are some capabilities which need more money and some capabilities which you can acquire more quickly. So it's a mix of everything. But, as I said, it is important to have the political commitment that the defense spending will go up and then the defense and the military people can already start acquiring these capabilities which are needed for regional plans.
J. Alex TarquinioMinister with a recurring pattern of Russia's large-scale Zapad exercises. Obviously, 2021 came right before the full-scale invasion of Ukraine and now we're back in that cycle and looking at Zapad 2025 in September. Is NATO concerned about the upcoming exercises and, specifically, is the Estonian defense minister? Is your country concerned, and what actions do you think you should be taking to mitigate this?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, I would say that it's the same with the critical infrastructure, that we are not concerned. We are monitoring the situation very closely. We of course have to understand that there will be more talks than actions by the Russians. They will use the propaganda a lot to show that they are doing a lot, but at least what we know at the moment that the number of troops will not be so high as maybe in the previous ZAPAD exercises. So let's see how it goes. But nevertheless, we are prepared and we are always ready to defend our country if necessary. But just to remind you also, NATO has exercises all the time. We have at the moment on the Baltic Sea, the exercise Baltops. We just finished a couple of weeks ago a huge exercise, the Hedgehog, here in Estonia, with 16,000 troops, 6,000 allies. We had many other exercises in Latvia, Lithuania, in Poland. So the exercises are a normal part of the militaries and this is exactly how we should take it. Of course, we are monitoring very closely what Russia is doing, because Russia is doing that together with Belarus.
Meeting with Ukraine Contact Group and then NATO
J. Alex TarquinioThe only reason to perhaps look at them more closely is the pattern of 2021 and the invasion of 2022. But so, in other words, it's something that NATO should monitor, but it's considered part of the routine of military exercises of the different alliances. Is that fair? Yes, okay, speaking of your meetings in Brussels, ahead of the NATO defense minister's meeting on Thursday, you'll be attending the Ukraine contact group meeting. Can you tell us a little bit about what you anticipate as an outcome?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWell, first and foremost, we have to show the solidarity with Ukrainians and to show our support to them, and then, of course, to continue our military assistance to Ukraine, because they need it every day. Resistance to Ukraine, because they need it every day. We have our own plans for the year and I believe that it is important to listen also to feedback from Ukrainians from Istanbul, and then let's see what the conclusion will be.
J. Alex TarquinioBut nevertheless, there is a clear understanding that the Europeans, together with Ukraine, and we, will help Ukraine also in the future. Obviously, this process began as the Ramstein group that met under the Biden administration. It's evolved quite a bit, shall we say, and it's no longer explicitly led by the United States. How has it evolved, and does that have any implications for the overall effort?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterIt is good that we have different countries involved, that Germany and the United Kingdom are taking more responsibility. It is good that we have the different coalitions. Estonia is leading the IT coalition, Our good friends Latvians are leading the drone coalition, and this is exactly how it should be that we will find the strengths of each country and we will use them in sake of Ukrainians and in the best way how to help Ukrainians. So, of course, I would like to see more involvement from the United States. Of course we will discuss and we will see also in the future more and more solidarity among the European countries and also the joint help of what we are sending to Ukraine.
J. Alex TarquinioThose coalitions are very interesting. I assume the drone coalition is involved in raising drones to donate to Ukraine. Those coalitions are very interesting. I assume the drone coalition is involved in raising drones to donate to Ukraine, or maybe looking at drone technology. You mentioned Estonia is part of the IT coalition. Estonia is very tech savvy. I think it's not an exaggeration to say that your country punches above its weight in technology, but in terms of the size of your population and the number of people who are very tech savvy and actually I spoke about this with your foreign minister when he was at the United Nations in September about advances you had made the IT coalition is that working on cybersecurity or is that working on actual physical tech that you are donating to Ukraine, or all of the above?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterWe have a very clear plan what we are doing with Ukrainians. Of course, we will not go into details. We've collected more or less 1 billion of assets for Ukrainians through this IT coalition, and then we have specified also the areas of work where we will help them in the IT sector and cyber field. So of course, we will not cover everything, but this is exactly why we have established that coalition to be and to help Ukrainians exactly in these specific fields where our help is most needed.
J. Alex TarquinioNow last year, at the 75th anniversary of NATO in the Washington summit, the declaration referred to China as a decisive enabler, specifically because of the technology the drones and also the dual-use technology that Russia got from China. Is that still the case, and is that something that NATO is still monitoring?
Hanno Pevkur, Estonian Defense MinisterNATO is monitoring all the time different actions not only by Russians but also by China, and of course, we see that Russia is using Chinese technology in Ukraine. So it's not a news to anyone and of course, we are keeping the eyes very close to that.
J. Alex TarquinioThank you, Mr Minister, for joining us today in the Delegates' Lounge.
Speaker 4Thank you very much. See you again.
Frank RadfordAnd that's it from the Delegates' Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who have graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or, from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and, if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicatesloungecom. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly executive producer, frank radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.