The Delegates Lounge

Dining with a Dozen Diplomats, A Culinary Holiday Special: Part Two

• The Delegates Lounge LLC • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Welcome back to the second part of our culinary special podcast miniseries: “Dining with a Dozen Diplomats.” Discover how joining together over a simmering pot of gumbo or carving a roast lamb can bridge cultural divides and foster diplomacy. Above all, get ready for some practical tips on hosting with warmth and creativity, even when things don't go according to plan. In the first episode, in our playlist below, our host J. Alex Tarquinio elicited recipes and reminisces from foreign ministers and permanent representatives, so-called because they lead their country’s Permanent Mission to the United Nations. In this episode, we continue the conversation with ambassadors and with the president of the United Nations Delegations Spouse’s Club, as we delve deep into the secret sauce of gastrodiplomacy.

Contributors:

The Delegates Lounge

J. Alex Tarquinio (host). @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge

Australia

H.E. Rebecca Bryant, Deputy Permanent Representative of Australia to the United Nations. @BecsBry  @AustraliaUN

Malta

H.E. Vanessa Frazier, Permanent Representative of Malta to the United Nations. @_VanessaFrazier   @MaltaUNMission

United States

H.E. Linda Thomas-Greenfield, Permanent Representative of the United States of America for Special Political Affairs in the United Nations. @USUN 

Zambia

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo, President of the United Nations Delegations Spouse’s Club and of the United Nations African Ambassadors Spouses Group; spouse of H.E. Dr. Chola Milambo, Permanent Representative of Zambia to the United Nations. https://www.facebook.com/UNDWCNewyork/

References

The host mentioned her essay about soft power in Foreign Policy:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/08/06/russia-ukraine-soft-power-culture-diplomacy-fellas-nafo/

U.S. President Richard Nixon ate with chopsticks at a banquet given in his honor by Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai in 1972. It’s an example of gastrodiplomacy making an impact on world history.

https://www.docsteach.org/documents/document/nixon-chopsticks

Visit our website to discover some of the recipes suggested in episodes one and two of our culinary special, “Dining with a Dozen Diplomats.”

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts, almost 20 hours of sunlight during the day.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

It makes those berries, especially the wild ones, very, very tasty.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Blood sausage. So we are using the blood and then we make sausages from that. If I'm going to explain how we do that, though I think nobody wants to eat that.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

that though I think nobody wants to eat that. There's one that we call rep, which I would liken to collard greens, kale, chamomile, spinach and many others. We take pride in drying food when we have it in abundance.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Rabanadas are the proof that nothing goes to waste in Portuguese cuisine, because you can use bread leftovers in this dessert.

H.E. Vanessa Frazier:

Its history is linked to shepherds who spent long hours in the mountains. Legend has it that one of them got tired of the usual bread and cheese.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

It's a real favorite and it's messy, but it's delicious in both summer and the winter pretty pears are everywhere, everywhere.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Another thing that you pick when you're walking as well, as long as you have some gloves welcome back to our culinary special dining with a dozen diplomats.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

if you haven't listened to part one yet, tune in on our playlist for a smorgasbord of recipes from Australia, brazil, cyprus, czechia, estonia, finland, malta, portugal, slovenia, switzerland, the United States and Zambia. These recipes were shared, as you've just heard, by a variety of high-level government ministers and ambassadors. Now, in part two, we'll delve deep into the intricacies of diplomatic dining, and we have one more very special recipe to share. But first a word on gastro-diplomacy, our word of the day.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Simply put, this is but one variety of soft power, which refers to the various ways that nations use their cultural influence to strengthen ties with other capitals. In the broadest sense, gastro-diplomacy refers to the visceral persuasion of a national cuisine to improve a nation's standing with foreigners. Diplomats abroad, for example, often exchange foodstuffs representative of their culture with their counterparts from other countries. In the narrowest sense, gastro-diplomacy is the influence a nation's representatives can wield at the dinner table or, as we'll learn, while chopping onions in a steamy kitchen or carving up a roast lamb. History has been made at the dinner table. Arguably there's a direct historical thread stretching more than 50 years, from US President Richard Nixon eating his dinner with chopsticks at a banquet hosted by Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai, to geopolitics today, and you don't have to take our word for it. Our show notes include a link to the photo of that bygone Chinese dinner in the US National Archives, along with a link to my foreign policy essay on soft power.

Frank Radford:

President, joe Biden's ambassador to the United Nations, and oh yeah, walk your feet at this little.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

President, joe Biden's ambassador to the United Nations, linda Thomas-Greenfield, known affectionately to her team as LTG, has her own spin on gastro-diplomacy she calls it gumbo-diplomacy. Greenfield, who refers to herself as a Louisianac cuisinier, grew up in the Bayou State, where this hearty soup is extremely popular. The United States held the rotating Security Council presidency in December as Greenfield was preparing to end her tenure at the UN, so we're pleased that she took time out of her busy schedule to share her personal gumbo recipe and a few words about the dish. Gumbo preparation takes time, the ambassador told us in a recent email, and over the course of her career she has made a point to invite others into the process, including foreign diplomats, to help chop celery or onions, for example. Working together like this, she says, breaks the ice. It opens doors to sometimes difficult conversations. She often says that gumbo diplomacy, as she calls it, works all the time because it makes people comfortable and helps build relationships. And, of course, gumbo makes for a delicious meal, and so she's happy to share her recipe with our listeners.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

You'll find the ambassador's gumbo recipe on our website, along with many of the recipes in the first part of the Dining with Diplomats culinary special. Her recipe serves 10 to 12, an ideal number for a diplomatic dinner. This gumbo recipe takes four hours to prepare, so when she pulls diplomats in the kitchen, they'd better be prepared to clear their calendars for the afternoon. The ingredient list calls for two pounds of andouille sausage, a staple of Louisiana cookery, but if you can't find this in your local shops, then you may substitute any smoked sausage. Combine that with two pounds of shrimp and two pounds of skinless chicken breasts cut up into chunks. The soup is packed with yellow onions, celery, green bell peppers, tomatoes, garlic, okra, creole seasoning and Louisiana's very own Tabasco sauce.

Frank Radford:

She makes gumbo, put hair on your chest. Her creole crawfish Are the best. You'll be hooked on for life If you taste a single spoon. You're gonna need it when you go Dancing under that bio-moon. Dancing under that bio-moon. Dancing under that bio-moon, dancing under that bayou moon, dancing under the bayou moon, dancing under the bayou moon. You're gonna need it when you go Dancing under the bayou moon.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

From the sultry Louisiana bayou, we're venturing to the craggy shores of Malta, land of medieval knights and Mediterranean cuisine. We recently sat down with the Island Nation's UN envoy in her office near the United Nations headquarters in New York. Vanessa Frazier is Malta's permanent representative to the United Nations, a title that simply means she is the top diplomat representing her country's permanent mission to the UN. As you'll hear in this episode, the ambassadors acting as their country's UN permanent representative, better known as the PR, change all the time. Typically, they stay about four years, but these are political appointments so they can alter with the government back home. Each year, five member states are elected to two year terms on the UN Security Council. The 10 elected members, collectively called the E10, serve alongside the five permanent Security Council members, better known as the P5.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Ambassador Fraser was wrapping up her term as one of the E10 when we spoke and she met with us between the morning and afternoon Security Council sessions. As you'll hear, this time was usually reserved for working lunches and it was her only free afternoon in mid-December. Some of her best memories of serving on the Council have been the monthly lunches with the Secretary General, often referred to as the SG Diplomacy is almost as fond of acronyms as the military. In the first part of this special, ambassador Fraser described her favorite Maltese dishes and the archipelago's wine and spirits, including Baitra, a sweet liqueur made from prickly pears. That's one of the gifts that she gives to her counterparts from other countries to represent the best of Malta. Here's the second half of our conversation.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

I find this podcast very interesting because actually food is a very important way to break the ice with people, and you know there are times when we would be in meetings or even, you know, around the council table, where it is very heated and we might be on opposite ends but we can actually eat together.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So that part is is key well, there's a's a whole conversation about hard power and soft power. We all know what hard power is, but I have written about soft power in other guises. But gastro diplomacy can be very important to diplomacy itself, which is why I wondered if you knew of any world history that had been made you know where they had difficulty agreeing on a treaty. And then I know this has happened.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Sit down to to a good meal together, and they finally come to an agreement.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

you know, because for some people, when we have ministerial meetings, there's always the dinner, absolutely, which is which is not the open session, it is more restricted, and then and all of us experts are outside and advisors waiting, waiting, waiting for our ministers or prime ministers to go out and say we agreed, marriage is compromise and invariably it is at the dinner of a conference where somehow you find some compromise on something. So I've seen it happen many, many, many times Are the ministerial dinners more formal?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I mean, obviously work gets done, the work is different.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

It is around the table For the food. You're not reading out of a script. There is a dialogue, you explain yourself, you interact, you ask questions, you do back and forth, and manners always prevail, right. So you are going to be less rude. You're not going to write about it. Oh you're saying rubbish. We have the respect for the host and for the others around the table, so it does make a big difference. You can do a lot.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I imagine it can be kind of startling seeing people who've been know at loggerheads in the consultations you know behind closed doors but the security council then see them over dinner or you know breaking bread and sort of laughing we also need to be.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

It's very important that we're able to distinguish between the, you know, the personal relationship and the professional relationship.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Also Because we have as career diplomats. We have all been in situations where we have maybe had to make a statement that we're not exactly in agreement with, but it's our government positions, right, but you really cannot blame the person that is delivering the message. So there is in these, in inners, there is the opportunity also to get to know the person and to establish the personal relationship. And then there's a personal relationship which could then change policy because, um, each ambassador, especially here at the un, you know these are the highest ranking diplomats of every country, so they have influence with their capitals. So when you have the opportunity to bring your case, you know, at a more informal, personal level, to an ambassador where maybe countries have been at loggerheads, I mean they could influence the policy in capitals after having had certain arguments and also because there's a personal relationship, you know. So it is very important and I have seen ambassadors change policy. I have influenced decisions taken in my capital also has a good diplomatic dinner.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

ever changed history, I do think so very much, maybe not you know a specific dinner, but a series of them for sure. It is so important for us to be able to interact with each other at a best and human level, not only to be, you know, around the working table, but when you're sharing food and you're talking about, oh, I like this, and this reminds me of a dish that we have at home, or we would never have this, or we would cook it and we have rabbit, but we would not bake it, but we would fry it. So you know, the conversations are different and you get to know people on a different level. They've been very important. When you build those personal relationships, then you can really build important bridges. So I think it is very important.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

I have been a bilateral ambassador all my career, except when I came here to the UN, and it's incredible how many lunches and dinners we have, but it is very important. At the beginning I had found it very difficult because I would say you really don't have to feed me if you need to ask me something, you know. But I understand the importance of the, of the interaction, that it's a different type of interaction. We really are a family and multilateral in diplomacy and it is important. It is important to learn about other cultures. It opens up avenues for other discussions and I have been at dinners and I have gone to dinners with the intention to raise a specific thing. When it is in a more casual, friendly and family especially when you have dinners in residences, not in restaurants, so you're actually in somebody's home it does make a big difference. It is important in diplomacy very much.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I always thought it was a great misnomer that you're called a permanent representative. Of course you represent the permanent mission, but the permanent representatives are anything, but they change all the time. As soon as they've presented their credentials, the other ambassadors will invite them, and are these mostly one-on-one? Like you will invite them back to the residence, or are there grand dinners for them? How does that work?

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

So new ambassadors do like to do a round. Of course, first thing that they would ask their PAs to do would be to set up a number of courtesy visits to ambassadors, and then it would depend on what their priorities would be. Normally, you would meet with the dean who's the oldest ambassador, your geographic family, the heads of the geography, and then you would work your way until you've tried to meet as many as possible individually. But each country would decide which ambassadors to meet first, depending on what their priorities would be.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

It sounds almost like ripples in a pool, like you throw in a stone.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

and first they meet with their regional colleagues and then Similar interests, but if you're on specific committees or whatever, so it really would depend on the individual country. And then there also is ambassadors who invite new ambassadors, so we like to do it. Even you know, amongst the EU we see each other. We have our EU ambassadors meeting every Tuesday, so we immediately meet new ambassadors. But it is nice to welcome from other regional groups. When there's a new African or Asian ambassador, it's nice to have them meet with some of you know, some key members of our group, just to help them understand our positions, for us to understand what their priorities will be, how we can collaborate and to build a friendship.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, in fact and I think people outside of the UN possibly don't understand how regional it is because you need, as a region, to work out things such as appointments to committees and who will run for this, and everything is sort of apportioned geographically. Those might be the level of things that you might work at at a luncheon and when you have um, your counterparts around to your home. I assume you have a special dining area. Do you put out special china?

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

are there things that represent malta on the table with our, with our coat of arms on it and you know the everything the flatware, the crystal.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Normally we would like to serve maltese wine also, which is not easy. We don't get it. So you know, some countries are lucky chile, or they can buy wine locally. We cannot, we receive shipments from malta, but we do like to promote the best of malta, um, and that is, you know, our food and our wine is part of our culture you know, at the UN you take a break between 1 and 3, there's pretty much a break, at least with the public events.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I assume that's because many we go to lunch. Yeah, many things are worked out over lunch meetings. Yes, we have a lot.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

So, the. Un work is from 10 till 1 and then from 3 to 6.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Those are the official UN hours, but 1.15 to 2.45 is the lunch hour. It's specific. No lunches start before 1.15 and have to end at 2.45 so that you can go to the 3 o'clock. And there are breakfast meetings also, which are 8.30 to 9.30. So there are actually set times. There are a lot of rules in diplomacy. Yeah, thankfully, although I have a dinner this Friday, but normally there are dinners on Fridays. The weekend is really very much for the family, but the rest of the week is all lunches and dinners and it may seem like it's all of gluttony, but it really is. I mean, a lot is done and it is very, very important. It really is important. I like to host. We host here, depending on. I like to. We host here, depending on the size we host at the mission. Um, it's smaller, more intimate. I prefer, you know, 12 at or even 10 at the residence.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

I do like to bring ambassadors to my home because I want them to know that they are personal friends also, not just colleagues. The respect is very important, that that one cultivates and we are all really one family, and so I believe that hosting at home is when one can. Is is much nicer, more personal, and I like to you know, in the home you have, you have photos of your family and you know it's and it feels more personal. So that is nice and a lot of work is done because in the UN meetings we read our statement.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

You then have to come back to your office and file diplomatic cables back to your capital, isn't?

H.E. Vanessa Frazier:

that right.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

And that's where you tell them what you learned in the dinner or what changed your mind.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

It won't be a very long report. You there would be key. You know there were two or three key um bits that you would have picked up, which which are important, which you might not have heard in a meeting, or you might not know about certain interaction, because you know you could be at a dinner with 10 other people which might be from different geographic groups and you don don't know that, oh, the Grulak and the Africans are going to have a resolution.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, you don't know, but they spoke about it and for listeners, Grulak is, and it's a strange acronym, it's the Group of Latin American.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Caribbean and you know, they would learn about something that we may be doing at the EU or way out with an European group, for example, because obviously we are in our families and in our groups, but it doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, the information wouldn't have come out yet, not because it's secret, but because it's not something that has been presented yet. Oh, this would be something I would be able to support. This is of interest. Normally, around the table there would be a cross-regional representation. The host normally tries to do that. You know, there's always one or two things you pick up which are which have to be conveyed so gastro diplomacy is a real thing it is a real thing, and the receptions are also important and there are times I go someone doesn't want to speak to us directly.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

You know I'll be there with my husband, so I know that some will go and speak to him so that he will get the message, because there are countries that don't talk to each other, they don't have diplomatic Like I could tell my husband, for example oh, we would never agree to that, but it's important to know. You know, for example, but they wouldn't. The country that conveyed the message would know the spouse was the message.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So that's where the diplomatic spouse comes in. For those who do have a spouse who's engaged, it can really be a two-person job.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

Normally at the dinners the spouses aren't invited because it's purely work. You can have ten ambassadors if you don't invite the spouse, but you would have five, and there are certain things that they may not say in front of the spouses. It's always just a thing around listening and eating so not only they're not invited, but as receptions, yes, um, I mean, I have five dinners this weekend.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

There's one he's invited, that's about you have to watch uh, I remember in one episode of um the diplomat, you know the show running now on netflix her spouse says this is fiction, of course, but how he would eat? Always eat a sandwich before a state dinner. Oh, I mean, I guess you have to not eat too much all these various dinners and lunches that you go to because I always have many.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

My PA always knows to tell them she will take food for the set and then I'm always like, can I have the souffle?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

but yes, so you do have to pace yourself. You have all these lunches and dinners you are cycling off. You're completing your two years on the council what would you miss?

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

I would miss would be the monthly lunches with the secretary general. We have a lunch at the 15 with the secretary general and the lunch as the E10 with the secretary. So two security council lunches every month with the SG and that is absolutely the one thing I will miss from my tenure.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Kind of the difference between the mood of the two lunches. There's a great difference.

Mrs. Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo:

In fact, I said that at the ground running that I would miss the lunches. To be honest, I would miss the E10 lunch.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

The E10 lunch is probably more frank and open conversation. I don't want to say just the E10, but when the P5 is sort of removed and all the drama of the.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

P5. And that does keep with the theme, so that's an excellent place to end Well. Thank you so much for your time. Today. Rebecca Bryant is Australia's Deputy Perman permanent representative to the United Nations. She described the challenges of making Australia's iconic dessert, pavlova, in the first episode. She's a career diplomat who went on to tell us about some of the more informal aspects of diplomatic dining, including a memorable dinner in her apartment in Beijing, where she was both cook and host. I imagine with your years as a diplomat, you must have hosted many a diplomatic dinner. How do you work to blend the cultures and respect each side? And also how does it function as a part of diplomacy?

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

I think in general, sharing a meal is always an icebreaker. So here in New York, more than in any other place that I have been posted to, food sharing is a critical part of communication. Most of our meetings because of the UN schedule you know, it's 10am to 1pm and then 3pm to 6pm the substantive bilateral and plurilateral meetings occur at mealtimes breakfast, lunch and dinner and so you know a larger number of working lunches, working dinners than I've ever experienced before. So a lot of work gets done over meals. We like to always welcome newcomers by taking them for lunch or having them for dinner. The ambassador and I here at the Australian mission, particularly with our Asia Pacific counterparts, we have an understanding that we will always invite them, you know, to lunch or dinner as soon as we've received their credentials. That's a fantastic way to get to know someone you know. It allows you to ask them about where they've come from, whether they've been to your country before. Have they seen this dish before? All of those things are much easier over food.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Now, that's a fascinating insight. So when you get a new counterpart, if there's a new envoy, it's always publicized, sort of certainly to the press corps and the UN Journal, when they present their credentials to the secretary general press corps and the UN Journal when they present their credentials to the Secretary General.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

As soon as those credentials have been presented, or if there's been any change in the arrangement for senior officers. So if you know there's a long period of leave for a permanent representative, there will be a note distributed. So I get advice at the deputy level, we get advice at the PR level and, yeah, it's a really great way for us to know movements and it allows us then to reach out and warmly welcome newcomers.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Is there any advice you'd like to give, maybe in terms of diplomatic dining and things that you know hosts might learn from this?

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

Sometimes. You know there are rules of protocol around dining. There's a lot. We have a training program for our young diplomats. You know that takes them through the order of precedence for seating. You know the correct arc of a meal 15 minutes of mingling followed by you know one hour and 15 minutes of meal time, the exact timings of entree, main and dessert. You can plan a meal perfectly according to protocol rules, but there's no alternative. There's no replacement for conviviality for warmth, no replacement for conviviality for warmth for and you don't always have to be informal to get that warmth. You can have warmth and be formal. But ensuring that your guests are comfortable, that you are accessible to them, that they feel welcome, that's really, really important. It's way more important than timings or yeah, that you get it perfectly correct.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

A formal dinner, for example at the ambassador's residence between two or more countries. The servers will know the cues. The principal says the entree course is over. There are cues that are given and it is somewhat stage managed like a performance, isn't that right?

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

That is correct. The thing is it doesn't always have to be that way. So one of the things that I think is really valuable when you're planning a meal is to think about whether it does need to have all of the protocols observed, whether you do need to have you know order of precedence observed in your seating arrangements arrangements, or whether you can go entirely the other way. I hosted a lunch recently for a group of colleagues and I abandoned protocol altogether with their agreement. We did a lottery, so I wanted everyone to sit somewhere different. So as they came into the dining room they picked a color out of a hat and then they went to sit somewhere different. So as they came into the dining room they picked a color out of a hat and then they went to sit at that seat. You know it was a color-coded table.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

Sometimes games are fun. It removes protocol as a barrier to communication and it can make people feel you know more welcome. It can be a little bit more fun. That's not always appropriate, I totally agree with you, but sometimes it's just good to mix it up.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

That's fascinating. I can see the benefits, the advantages and disadvantages of both. If you don't give people forewarning, they may feel they're being disrespected if you don't obey the protocol. But on the other hand, when diplomats who are so used to protocol get taken out of that, that could be like the rules are there, they're sort of made to be broken.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

I think it's important that you just don't do it the same way every time, right? Because otherwise, gosh, I eat so many lunches and dinners and if every one of them was exactly the same, that would get a bit dull. I mean, the key to any meal with friends or professional colleagues is, you know, making them feel comfortable. If I'm a host, that's my first priority. So if someone comes to my house and alcohol is culturally inappropriate for them, I'm not going to not serve alcohol, but I'm going to communicate actively with them so that their expectations are well managed and I'm going to ensure that there are sufficient delicious choices available.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

I want everybody to feel like they can be themselves. I want them to feel comfortable and to have choices available that suit them. So I think you know, particularly in the UN environment, where we are such a large melting pot, there's so much consideration given to how people live, how they, what their faith is, what their cultural norms are, and there's a lot of respect that everybody does it in a different way. So making sure people are comfortable, that is the key to a fantastic dinner for everyone. Food, drink, all of that's important. And ensuring that people are comfortable, that's the key.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

When you were doing any of this diplomatic dining over the years, did you have any near misses Like you mentioned? For example, lamington's at least the story goes may have been created because a chef was kind of caught out and got late notice. Did you have something where an ingredient didn't arrive on time, or can you think of anything where you had to improvise for a dinner?

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

Yeah, it's interesting. When I was living in China, I used to have people to my home. I didn't live in the ambassador's residence, I had a you know an apartment in Beijing, but I find it's a really nice way to get to know your colleagues better if you have them to your home and you cook, rather than have a chef cook or going to a restaurant. It's just that much more intimate. And I you know the quintessential Australian meal. Casual meal for me would be roast lamb with roast vegetables Difficult to do in lots of places because lamb isn't easily available in a lot of places. The lamb turned out okay. It took me a long time to find it, but you know, delicious slow roasted potatoes, beautiful, but the pavlova just did not set properly. So what I ended up serving them was, you know, a broken pavlova just piled with cream and fruit, which was very tasty, but not quite what I was going for Were they familiar with pavlova?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Because if they weren't familiar, I'm sure it was still tasty.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

There's another dessert in the UK called Eton Mess.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Eton as in the school or eat no Eton as a school. E-t-o-n and mess.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

Kind of like a failed pavlova. So it's when the pavlova kind of breaks into pieces and it's all put together with the cream and some jelly and some fruit and they call it eaten mess.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

It's funny you should talk about making lamb in Beijing, because lamb, I know, is a very typical main dish in Australia and tasty, but not actually throughout.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

Asia. You know, increasingly people are moving to plant-based diets. So when you're entertaining it can be quite challenging to prepare and plan a meal based on a meat dish. So you know again now if you're offering a roast, you do have to offer a plant-based diet An alternative?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Absolutely. It must be difficult too if you are the diplomat having another diplomat over and you're also cooking. I mean well that any, any home cook would know when they're preparing for a holiday meal or or they have maybe the their husband's boss is coming over or something the stress of both having to be the chef and have the winning personality once you get to dinner.

H.E. Rebecca Bryant :

So it does. You're absolutely right, it does influence your choices. So the thing about a roast most of the work is done and you bring it to the table. I think the important thing is to incorporate the service into the meal itself. Either you make it fully casual and you know you put the dishes on the table and everyone can help themselves, or you bring it out and there's some, I guess, some theatre around. You know the carving of the roast or whatever it is. Some people enjoy plated meals, so guests are seated and you bring out a meal fully plated. That for me isn't possible. When I'm doing it myself, I kind of like the act of sharing. You know all the forks in the spoons into the dishes. I think that creates an intimacy and a casualness that you know can be really nice.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Cecilia Kanyangwa Milambo is the spouse of the permanent representative of Zambia to the United Nations, Dr Chola Milambo. She is the president of both the United Nations Delegation Spouses Club and the United Nations African Ambassadors Spouses Group. She described Zambia's cuisine in the first part. Here she takes us through all of the stages of preparing and hosting a diplomatic dinner at the ambassador's residence. The diplomatic spouse has a very important role to play, and can you describe that for our listeners?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Sure. So I believe the spouse is a very key factor in diplomacy. We bridge the gap through our social ties, through networking, through working together, through doing charity events, visiting each other, and we get to learn and respect each other's backgrounds and cultures. I'm in charge of the residence, so to say.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well it's like, very similar to the official duties of a first lady. I guess you have to plan to be a diplomat's or ambassador's wife. You have to plan social occasions, perhaps help plan the menu of a if you're having an important ambassador over, and there must be some difficult considerations because you both want to show off your culture to to the guest and also respect their culture and find a happy meeting ground. So how, how? Does that go into the planning.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Okay, so for my husband and I this is our first diplomatic posting. He's an economist. He was with the World Bank and later IMF in Washington DC and I'm a banker by profession and you know, with banking you have to do a lot of networking. And then while he was at the World Bank would have some delegates that would come for annual meetings and spring meetings, and I'm so glad we did that because that was the beginning of our training. So, fast forward, when I was coming into this role, I was taken to the Zambia Diplomatic School. It's called ZIDIS.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

And you learn about the various aspects of the roles, such as planning the diplomatic meals, and there's a lot that's very formal, the order of precedence. Do you learn all of that at school?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Yes. So ZIDIS was very helpful. I sat with these remarkable ladies who have served overseas and now are back helping new diplomats get into the role. One trick they told me which I was getting to Alex was that when you get to New York because what we're telling you here is theory, but when you do get to New York try and visit your fellow spouses. So that was my first inkling. I asked my neighboring country, zambia's landlocked. We're surrounded by eight neighbors, so I reached out to each one of them if I could call for a courtesy call. A courtesy call is 30 minutes to one hour and when I visited I would see how they welcomed me, how they spoke, how they served their tea, and I was picking lessons from that, even if we had already entertained in DC. You know, american entertainment sometimes is casual.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Yes, it's much more casual than diplomatic dining, or even the way that you present a cup of tea in a mission here at the UN is quite different than it would be done in a business environment or in New York or Washington.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Absolutely so. That helped me a lot from the neighbors and I started doing regions and I haven't finished visiting all the 193 residences in New York.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Do you have a goal to do that before the end of your term to visit all 193?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

It's a must to at least meet them, and being president of these two groups has helped me. Where I cannot go to their residence, I'm able to meet them. We can have a coffee, we can talk and you know, that way you keep learning from others. So when it comes to entertaining at home, usually the office will let me know or my husband would tell me we have so-and-so coming to the residence. Okay, and I'll ask the date.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

I'll ask who exactly is coming, because of all the protocols, all the rankings, because even when we sit them at the table, there's a ranking that has to follow in terms of seniority. If it's an ambassador that has been in New York for a long time, or if it's a certain rank from home, you know, if it's a, it's the military team coming, who sits where? Who sits at the head of the table, who sits in the middle, and all that placement. Who sits where? Who sits at the head of the table, who sits in the middle, and all that placement. So I will ask for those details and every step of the way I'm in touch with the office just so we're on the same page. Because, you know, sometimes we wives can get a little excited and want to do things the way I want, but I always have to follow with the guidance of the office.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So there's a certain order of precedence for the diplomatic corps, obviously, if you have a minister, that's clear coming, and also the military, and the military would be by rank, although there's almost a counterpart in diplomacy to rank. And then, in terms of the service during dinner, does the chef and their staff, do they take the clues, I guess, from your husband, because there must be during the dinner service, it's also probably an order of precedence and the flow of the meal. How does that work?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Yes, so when we host at home and we need a service, the office staff will come to help with the dinner service and they already know the protocol so it's easier. So you discuss, you know before the dinner who's going to do what. Who in particular is going to serve who, because sometimes in those protocols you'll find only one person can serve the most senior person at the table.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Is it based on?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

the rank. For example, we had our vice president and she had one person who was on her team to serve her and the rest of us were served by the people from the office. So it's such protocols that I have to make sure I abide by. Even if I live in this residence, I still have to respect, because when you have a senior person such as the honorable vice president, you have to follow the protocols and at times it could be fellow ambassadors who go by who has served longest in New York and that's the one who take the head of the other side of the table and then we'll seat them according to seniority. So the preparations pretty much are discussing the menu with the office. If I know what the people who are coming like, it's very easy. That's what will be on the menu. But if I don't know, I try to infuse a variety so that there's something for everyone.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

And is there a blend of your native customary food or do you try and infuse some of your traditional cooking, or perhaps the traditional cooking of your guests?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

So if it's our nationals coming, definitely our food will be on the menu, yeah. But if it's a variety of people, I've seen that the tradition in New York is usually sea bus yeah. So once the menu is discussed and agreed, an officer from the office will go either with me or, if they chose a caterer, they will go together to buy the food, to ensure we buy the freshest and, you know, the most good looking food out there. And then all this is done the day before and then on the day itself we just do the final touches and for me, I will make sure a few days prior, we take out the china. Even if it's clean, we have to clean it again, ensure there's enough china flatware and glassware. We have what we call the coat of arms. There's a male and a female standing, of course, representing the family. There's a cob of maize Remember I talked about our staple food.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

There's the eagle the eagle, which shows the ability of rising above our problems. There are these wavy lines representing the same colors that you'd find in our flag, but also the waviness represents the Victoria Falls when it's an official dinner. That's the China. We will use your symbolism. In your China, you show the strength of your country. It's also homage. I mean, we're all here because of our country, so we take pride in putting that on the table and have the menu on the table so that everybody knows what they're going to eat. So the food tasting. I prefer to do that because sometimes the palate of somebody might find it a bit strange to test food from Zambia.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Oh, and you don't want it to be, for example, too spicy, if it's not a dinner where there are only other Zambians there. Now I would guess that the chef tastes the food, because you also want to make sure that it's safe. So you want the chef to. I mean, I know you select nothing but the freshest fruits and vegetables and meats, but does the chef taste it first and then you taste it for the flavor? How does the tasting work?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

The chef has to bring the food not less than two hours before. So she or he will taste it. The chef she will, and we'll look at her for 30 minutes straight to make sure she didn't do anything there.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Right, right, no. So she is like they used to in medieval times have the royal food taster. So the chef has always fulfilled that role. So she'll taste it first and maybe half an hour so you'll come in and say how is it, and then you'll have a little taste it and partly there you're looking to make sure it's not too spicy for your guests if they're not all Zambian.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Make sure the salt is right. With all these dietary issues, make sure the food is fresh.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Now, if this is done two hours before, I guess you just then reheat it. Well, that way you know it's also done on time. I imagine the timing is very important.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Yes, We'll bring out our chaffing dishes and put all this food in. You know that slow heating and at least 30 minutes before we sit down to eat. So you put some warm water in a second dish, put it there and put a burner underneath and that does a good job. You know, it doesn't distort the taste of the food, it just heats it.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Now it sounds like it's also safer to have the food for multiple reasons, to have it ready a couple hours before. But have you ever had any near misses, something you're almost pulling your hair out because something didn't quite work out for for a diplomatic dinner?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

thank god, no, uh, alex, I'm, I'm, I'm hands-on, even when I know that there's help, even when I know that officers will come from his office. I do understand that these are hard-working people, mean I can start the cooking on time. I don't mind doing three, four dishes before they arrive. We're all trying to entertain here. We're all trying to create a good name for our country.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

And I should point out, obviously there are some ambassadors who do not have a spouse or partner and I would assume that in those missions they assign that role to a member of staff. That's true, you can speak officially as a diplomatic spouse because you are president of the United Nations Delegates Spouses Club.

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Oh yes, we do a lot. We do a lot of charity work. There is a major event that we hold every summer and we identify four to five countries that would benefit from those proceeds. For instance, this year, among them, we donated to the soldiers of Ukraine for their rehabilitation. Another country benefited was Sudan, and then also Doctors Without Borders.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Obviously there are women representatives of the UN, and do you have men in your group of diplomatic spouses? Are they a member of your group and are they as interested in performing some of these duties, making sure the diplomatic dinners come off on time and to a level of perfection?

H.E. Linda Thomas Greenfield (Read):

Yeah, so we do have male spouses, and they too are in charge of supporting their peers in their homes or residences. For dinners, I've been to several where there's a male spouse, and the dinners have been exceptional.

H.E. Vanessa Frazier:

And that's it from the Delegates Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who have graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and, if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicatesloungecom. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly executive producer, frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.