The Delegates Lounge

Estonia's Foreign Minister On Digital Leadership in the AI Era

• The Delegates Lounge LLC • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Listen in on our conversation with Margus Tsahkna, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia, as he explains the intricate connections between global diplomacy and digital innovation. We caught up with Estonia's foreign minister during the United Nations General Assembly week. Our discussion touched on the Pact for the Future and Estonia's leadership in digital innovation and cybersecurity, exploring his take on the delicate balance between fighting Artificial Intelligence-driven disinformation and preserving freedom of speech.

This segment also highlights how digital voting has boosted voter participation in Estonia, especially among younger and mobility-challenged populations, and the critical role of providing objective information to support democratic debates and informed decision-making. Finally, he described his views on the relationship between the conflicts in the Middle East and in Ukraine and explained what he thinks "it" means when talking about victory for Ukraine.

Join us for this episode that navigates the complexities of international diplomacy, cybersecurity, and AI.

Speakers:

J. Alex Tarquinio (host). @alextarquinio of delegateslounge on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

Margus Tsahkna, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia (guest). @Tsahkna of @MFAestonia on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

References:

Alex, our podcast host, wrote the United Nations General Assembly curtain raiser for Foreign Policy, and in it, she explains the Pact for the Future, and quotes Ambassador Robert Wood along with other UN experts. Here's a gift link for nonsubscribers.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/09/23/unga-summit-united-nations-dysfunction-guterres-russia/

The Pact for the Future is explained in this site about the Summit of the Future.

https://www.un.org/en/summit-of-the-future/pact-for-the-future

Our guest spoke about Estonia's role in the Freedom Online Coalition.

https://freedomonlinecoalition.com/

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back to the second day of our continuing coverage of the United Nations High Level Week at the UN headquarters in New York. Here at the Delegates' Lounge, we're interviewing several of the foreign ministers and other senior diplomats who are here, with the world leaders taking their turns at the rostrum in the General Assembly Hall. Today, we're pleased to bring you our exclusive interview with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia, Markus Sakna, with the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Estonia, Markus Sakna. He became the Baltic nation's foreign minister in April of last year and previously served as defense minister. Join us for insights from one of the key voices shaping global diplomacy and artificial intelligence. Estonia is poised to chair the Freedom Online Coalition, an intergovernmental group aimed at prioritizing online transparency. As a recognized leader in digital innovation and cybersecurity, Estonia will prioritize ensuring that artificial intelligence upholds human rights.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

We also spoke about the Pact for the Future, a wide-ranging policy document that had the support of the vast majority of the UN member states when it was adopted by consensus on Sunday. However, Russia and a handful of others objected. If you'd like to learn more about this, I covered it in an article that I wrote for Foreign Policy that I'll include in the show notes, and we spoke about the widening conflicts in the Middle East and, of course, Ukraine. Here's our conversation. Thank you, Mr Minister, for making time to join us during UNGA. It's a busy week. Obviously, the pact for the future passed by consensus, but not unanimously. It was a little contentious at the end with the last minute Russian amendment which went nowhere. Can you tell me first how important do you think the pact is, the fact that it did pass by consensus, and whether it will make a real difference in people's lives?

Margus Tsahkna:

Yes, the pact of future is important and of course, it is not changing anything practically like today or the next day, but it was an important process. It was very important for us as well, as a small country, that multilateral approach was successful and there are lots of rumors that why we need United Nations and if the Security Council is not working. But actually during this UNGA week as well, we see that how important it is that we will follow as well the United Nations Charter, territorial integrity questio ns, but also the President Biden was very strong about the reform, about the Security Council, though this Pact of Future it's a very wide paper, or the pact in the meaning, but I think the value of that was that we were able to adopt it, we were able to pass it and without voting who is pro and favor? But the voting was about that. We are not going to vote, it will be consensus thing.

Margus Tsahkna:

And the other thing I think it was very clear who were against that, who wanted to stop it, and it was guided by Russia. So for us as a small country, a neighboring country of Russia, and also as frontrunners for fighting against Russian aggression and for the territorial integrity, it was very important that Russia was not successful of ruining this process and also it was clear that which countries were together with them. I think that the future world will be more divided between countries which are, how to say, understanding the importance of the United Nations Charter we agreed, actually after the Second World War international law the rule-based world and who are against that very clearly. Law the rule-based world and who are against that very clearly. And I think that Russia actually made a great damage for themselves because it was a great, great majority. It was all the countries, all different continents, bigger and smaller countries, who were in favor of this future pact.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Actually, that was very interesting because Russia has been trying to woo parts of the global south, as we know, the last couple of years, as it's been isolated since its full scale invasion of Ukraine, and it seemed to take a real step back, because the path to the future is very popular with the global south, exactly To succeed.

Margus Tsahkna:

Yeah, but it is a good sign that this United Nations Charter, as a principle, also the common understanding that we need to cooperate, we need to find the common path, we need to find consensus about the future. This is, as you said as well, more popular amongst all the different parts of the world, for the smaller countries, for bigger countries, but also, I think that there are some practical values, as well as using AI, that we are going to deal with that. Estonia is a digitalized country. Really, we are a digital nation in the meaning, and we have already this AI strategy in place. But the good thing is that we are not avoiding that, we are not just hiding it somewhere, because it will be a part of our lives. It will affect all of us as a humanity as well, the human rights, everything, and we agree to deal with that, and this is something big, I think.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, actually there are many things in the pact I should explain to listeners. There's climate change, security Council reform, international financial structure reform, but one of the most important things is AI. In fact, an entire part of the pact is about the digital transformation and Estonia has been a real leader on this. And I know Estonia is in the Freedom Online Coalition and you have a lot of concern about your psychological defense plan for the use of disinformation. But now AI aided disinformation.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

But on the other hand you have to balance this with freedom of speech and freedom of information. So how do you, as Estonia's representative on this coalition, how do you see that balance between AI's use for good and freedom of speech versus the psychological defense you're having to do against disinformation?

Margus Tsahkna:

exactly. Ai has come and they never it never leaves. But be honest, nobody knows the limits of that, so we need to deal with that. We we don't have to like say that it doesn't happen. It is happening right now already. But there are like opportunities and there are risks as well.

Margus Tsahkna:

But we see the opportunities as a digital nation in the meaning of personal services, personal rights, access for freedom. We think that the personal freedom is most important as well and AI can change it in positive ways. But also we don't know where and what level this AI is going. So we need to protect the human being, we need to protect humanity in the meaning of that. The machine is not taking over. We need to have this man control there as well, about very sensitive areas. But as well, ai will go everywhere. Ai will go to defense, industry, wars, everything and also disinformation.

Margus Tsahkna:

But communication nowadays is already personal, it's online, it's in social media, so it's harder and harder for people to understand what is truth, what is not truth and, to be honest, this personalized communication has been used already to create any kind of conflicts, and it's my personal opinion has been used already to create any kind of conflicts and it's my personal opinion, there is a fight for our minds and, personally, it's not only the question anymore about the governments what governments are deciding whether they are supporting one or the other side but this is global race about the values, and AI will be used in wrong ways. I'm sure that we are not able in the future to control it 100%, but at least we should argue, we should agree what kind of rules we are put in, because this is a revolutionary situation. I think that it doesn't happen within the next couple of decades. It is happening within the next couple of years. Already, this digital revolution is everywhere.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Can you tell listeners a little bit about the Freedom Online Coalition and also how you see that working with the United Nations, because obviously it's no secret. Secretary Guterres has made this a big focus.

Margus Tsahkna:

For Estonia. Leading this coalition is a very practical approach as well, because we have been taking very active position about digitalization, about AI in the future, about digital services. In Estonia, we have 99% of public services online already, though what we need to explain is that this is a great opportunity for everybody. It is like part of the Fit for Freedom program that Estonia has the personal freedom for people, so we need to guarantee the access of Internet and also access for services. In Estonia, we have the highest standard of digitalization. We can vote online. We have e-voting. Next year, we are introducing as well the mobile voting M-voting we call that and it's not like the case that we can vote, but it's the question that it's the highest standard for democracies, that there is a trust amongst the government in the meaning of using your data and all the other principles.

Margus Tsahkna:

Though, what we want to achieve is to protect the personal freedom and rights through the digitalization, because what we have witnessed in our society during the last 20 years is that we have gained a lot.

Margus Tsahkna:

Our people have gained a lot.

Margus Tsahkna:

We are more free than ever.

Margus Tsahkna:

The personal freedom and personal rights and human rights they are on that level that we are like leading and most of the different, different resources, and this is an opportunity and we have very deep cooperation with African continent countries. It is changing the societies and I think that these developing eras, they can jump on a new level, as we did 20 years ago. We don't know how to use fax machines, I don't know how to use the checkbooks of banks, and now these parts of the world where we have the majority of people living, they have the crazy opportunities for developing their freedom, their life, equality, standards, everything. So we take this position in very practical ways to deepen the cooperation and also to explain that this is like the value-based approach we need to set the values we are following and these are all somehow explained with human rights and personal freedoms and this opportunity and it is very like democratic part and also digitalization has given us the transparency of the society, though every single person can be free in the meaning of the most primitive ways.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I'm very interested in e-voting and I don't know if you can tell me a little bit about how that works. I mean, there's a great deal of trust involved in the voting procedure. People have to trust the government that their vote will still be anonymous, when obviously, if it's an app, there has to be some way of building in the anonymity so they don't trace it back to your phone.

Margus Tsahkna:

Exactly. We have had these debates already 20 years ago. We have e-votings already more than 20 years in Estonia, and you're totally right, it's not the technological approach, it's a question of trust whether people trust the government or not and also we have the principle in Estonia agreed all the data belongs to the person. The person can check what is happening with the data even more than if the data has been moved on the paper. You never know who is watching and what is what is happening. This is totally the other way around, and I think that this is the the the the highest risk to make this kind of reforms. But we were succeeding, uh, 20 years ago.

Margus Tsahkna:

And the other part is the cyber attacks, the hybrid attacks. So Estonia is constantly under hybrid and cyber attacks. We have like more than 20, maybe 40 attacks per 24 hours, and also our e-voting system. We are testing it constantly with the best hackers in the world. So, to show that actually it can be protected and it has been protected, though, I think we have like a good example that you, you create something new, you create the digital world and you're able to protect it. And these, these hackers, or the, the attacks, they're not only coming from Russia, they're coming from North Korea, they're coming from the private groups, because we are like the standard that everybody all the hackers, all the group they want to break down.

Margus Tsahkna:

But we have been succeeded most of the times, though there's always two parts, and to serve the trust of the people, you have to show it that their data is safe and, of course, the M voting. Finally, yes, this application, this is application. It's governmental application, but it's a question of trust and belief as well. But we always keep the traditional way of voting in life, in the meaning that, finally, whoever is not trusting this can vote traditional ways, using the paper, and go and do it because it is a voluntary thing.

Margus Tsahkna:

We don't, we cannot push people in the meaning of saying that this is only online, and we have been witnessing that, even the older generation. They had taken over most of the online and digital services because they understand it's much more comfortable, and we are hiding all the bureaucracy from the personal view, and actually what is the result is the quality and personalized services, but also the time we are releasing, the time people have more time for themselves or their jobs and or whatever. This is something new. We're trying to count how many hours, days or years people don't waste anymore for bureaucracy.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I'm wondering if you've also increased participation, because certainly people in rest homes with mobility issues might not have been able to get to the polls so easily and are now more likely to vote. I don't know if you've kept track on whether participation has increased.

Margus Tsahkna:

Participation has increased because in Estonia we have like one week you can make the choices and, of course, the final traditional vote. If you decide finally to go and vote traditional ways, it counts. And we see as well the increase of the younger generation participation, really, really, because you know, sometimes they don't care about the voting, but it's now cool, they can go and participate.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Yeah.

Margus Tsahkna:

But it also gives us and puts us responsibilities to guarantee the objective information that people actually will get the information what is going on, who is who, what are the real stories, what are the political choices. So it affects as well the debate, what we have in our societies. It affects the democracy.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

You mentioned the hybrid warfare aspect of the attacks, and it's not only Russia, it's North Korea. Do you also see a lot of cyber attacks coming from Iran?

Margus Tsahkna:

I can say different places, different places, okay.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I think we can imagine what some of those different places might be. And speaking of hybrid attacks, I also wanted to ask you about the hybrid use of immigration, which we saw a lot at the height of the Syrian conflict and now, with growing violence we're seeing in the Middle East. Are you prepared, perhaps, for more of that?

Margus Tsahkna:

Yes, as a neighboring country and border country with Russia, we have witnessed during the last two and a half or three years heavy attacks, though we have changed as well our policies. But we are very clear we don't let anybody into our territories, really, and I think that Russia has understood as well this situation, because they are weaponizing these poor people who are suffering, because we are not against these people, but we are against weaponizing this immigration. Also, we see the great change between the Finland and Russian border and Finland has adopted now the new regulations about the immigration because of that. But the hybrid attacks we witness now in Europe, they are not only the so-called weaponized immigration attacks. We see hybrid attacks in European territories. Estonia made at the end of the last year, arrests about more than 10 persons who were guided, financed and organized by the Russian secret services in our territories. So we witnessed already the different attacks against persons. We see the attacks against the different infrastructure in Europe, in Germany, everywhere.

Margus Tsahkna:

So this is one part of the Russian push to put our societies under pressure.

Margus Tsahkna:

But we decided, together with Baltic Sea, governments, that we list all the hybrid attacks what we and hybrid and cyber attacks what we have had during the last two and a half years and if you put all these hybrid attacks, what we have had in in europe from russia to to the perspective like three years ago, I think that we have all been in shock. So what russia is doing, they are pushing us, they are, they are testing our limits, they want to how to say to to tire our societies. So actually they have hybrid I'm not calling it war, but hybrid actions are there already. It's a part of the Russian aggression behavior. So this is something what we do. We do it publicly, we publish everything what we do and what we know, not to panic, but just to show the people that actually we are able to fight back. So this is a new level of aggression. It's not like a classical military aggression, but it is psychological hybrid action and we don't know we never know what is exactly going to happen next time.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I don't know if Estonia uses this expression. Many countries, when they express their support for Ukraine, often say they're with Ukraine as long as it takes, and I have to admit, I don't know if your government uses that expression Not anymore.

Margus Tsahkna:

Until Ukraine wins.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

What is it?

Margus Tsahkna:

It is actually that we need to push Russia back to Russia. We are not dealing Russia in Russia and it's not only the question of Ukraine, it's a question of the security in Europe, it's a question of accountability, it's a question about the United Nations Charter, the international law, though this is not only the military operation. Of course, the most rapid thing is to give Ukraine what they need, to take down the restrictions, what we have put or not we actually Estonia has been always in the position that Ukraine has a right to fight back, based on international law, also in territories of Russia, though I do hope that the restrictions will be removed, that actually Ukraine can fight and to be clear, most of those restrictions are by the United States and Germany.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I mean, the large weapon suppliers are the largest to Ukraine, but they've also put restrictions on using those in Russia. So you feel that it's time to lift all those restrictions.

Margus Tsahkna:

Yeah, it has time already two and a half years ago but I do hope that this political decision of US will happen soon.

Margus Tsahkna:

It's not me to say what the US must do or not, but our position has been from the beginning that Ukraine has all the rights to use the weapons, also targeting in the territory of Russia, and I do hope that President Zelensky's victory plan, which will be released within the next couple of days, will be successful in the meaning I think that he's not going to ask anything new.

Margus Tsahkna:

I think that there will be the idea about the restrictions about military support, about investments to the economy and also energy system, because winter is coming and actually we had a meeting with the G7 plus countries about this and also I think that invitation to NATO as a guarantee for the future security will be there. I do hope that it will happen because we have been witnessing during the last two decades that the green gray eras or the neutrality zones in the neighboring countries of Russia. It has been only the green light for Putin to go in. The only security guarantee which will work is the full membership of NATO, and it's like not only for Ukraine but the other way around In our region. I think in the future Ukraine will play the huge role to secure our military security as well will play a huge role to secure our military security as well.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

What do you think is prompting some allies and partners of Ukraine to hold back in some ways and I know obviously you're not a mind reader but is the reluctance primarily due to a fear of escalation? Or do you think there are certain red lines because they're actually concerned? What might happen if there's a change? They're very used to Putin. He's been in there a long time. What is your sense as a neighbor on? Are you concerned about what might come next if the Ukraine situation.

Margus Tsahkna:

I think there is like two mental problems I can say. One is a fear of escalation and Putin is using that, that. But he's not reliable anymore because I remember when we gave in the beginning of Russian aggression, the officers then putin said that now there will be an escalation, now we'll give the fighters and the tanks and long-range missiles and everything, and putin is afraid of nato. Putin is afraid of this kind of escalation but he's using, like I don't know, nuclear escalation. We don't believe it will happen. We don't believe it will happen because putin is afraid what if he's going to use it? Because he's going to be totally alone. I'm sure that china and all the other countries will be very, very, very concrete with that. So the fear of escalation is written into some minds. The second is that some bigger countries they are afraid of if Russia loses, and it's the same mental position as we witnessed in 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed.

Margus Tsahkna:

Iceland, the small country, was the first country to recognize Estonian independence in 1991. And then all the others came. But I remember even that we were told that maybe it's not a good idea, you know, get a totally free country. Maybe it's enough. Let's have, like some, you know, period there, but it's like some countries are afraid if Russia will lose the war. But we say that Russia must lose and can lose the war, otherwise the aggression will come again, maybe not in Ukraine, some other places, and we are the neighboring country, though Russia will remain at rest in the future as well, whether Putin is in Kremlin or not.

Margus Tsahkna:

So I don't see the quick change now in Russia. Of course we would like to see the democratic, normal country as Russia, as a neighboring country, but this is a regime thing. It's not only Putin and that is Russian. People must deal with themselves. So we are not dealing what is happening in Russia, but we need to push Russia back to Russia and we need to establish these accountability questions as well. The aggression crime the aggression crimes is a leadership crimes. So we need a special tribunal, international special tribunal, of that. We were able to finish the last conflict in proper way and it was the Second World War, with the Nuremberg process and all the next conflicts where the Western part has been participating. We don't know exactly how it ended, with what it ended, and this is like the bad thing. We need to finish this aggression and with a high price for Russia and a good example for everybody that territorial integrity is there, accountability is there and responsibility of the leadership is there.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Tell us how you define Ukraine winning and Russia losing.

Margus Tsahkna:

I'm defining that there cannot be any peace negotiations or peace plans without Ukraine, there cannot be any peace processes in Europe without Europe. So the idea that Brazil or China or whoever is going to put place the uh, the, the peace, or the, the, the security architecture in europe, this is nonsense, because ukraine must be part of that, europe must be part of that. And then we declare together on the conditions that, yes, this is the win or this is the the, this is peace, but it must be just and a long-lasting peace. It means as well that we cannot repeat the Minsk agreements, what we already had, because we are sure that it will continue. This aggression will be continued, though it is hard to say exactly what is the peace.

Margus Tsahkna:

Now. We have this, president Zelenskyy, 10 points peace plan. We agree with that, we support that, and also Estonia, together with Argentina, has been taking responsibility for the point five. This is territorial integrity, and also Estonia, together with Argentina, has been taking responsibility for, on the point five, this is territorial integrity and also United Nations Charter. But we are, we are leading this, this, this, this topic as a number five though, but the main rule is nothing without Ukraine, because Ukraine is fighting there. I don't want to see Yalta will be repeated again because we were left out from the Yalta process. The Second World War was finished to our nation, that we were occupied and we lost one-fifth of our population, so we know this story very well.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

No repeat of Yalta. That's very clear Now. Ukraine was a focus until October 7th this last year. Attention has been, shall we say, divided, certainly here at the UN, about the Middle East conflict, which obviously has had an escalation this past week from Gaza to Lebanon.

Margus Tsahkna:

Is there a connection between them? And also, what can the UN do in the Middle East? Is there anything it can do there? Estonia has been very clear about the United Nations votings about the Palestine resolutions, that we need to stand and we need to protect as well the international law and rules, though this is a very complicated question, but of course they are related.

Margus Tsahkna:

I don't believe that Putin is behind everything Of course this is a long story but believe that Putin is behind everything. Of course this is a long story. But Putin is very happy that we have more and more different conflicts, that we put our energy, attention and also resources in, so any kind of escalation as well outside from Ukraine. It is very useful for Putin as well. But we as Estonia, we are not only focusing on what is going on in Ukraine, in our region. We are very much concerned what is happening in Gaza, what is happening actually in African countries, that Russia is very active there as well. It's very cheap actually to support this military groups to take over with very undemocratic and brutal ways one or the other country, and it is so hard to be present and do something as a democratic union, as European Union, so nobody knows, it's not in people's mind that the European Union has been the largest and the biggest supporter for Palestine government in the meaning these processes. So I'm very much concerned what will happen.

Margus Tsahkna:

But I think that President Biden had very clear position as well during this speech in the United Nations two days ago, that a two-state solution is the only way. But it needs ceasefire, it needs release of hostages and it needs negotiations. We don't see this will right now there, though, of course, this attention which is going away from Ukraine and also resources. It's worrisome, but we have to face that all the conflicts in the world are connected, all the conflicts and also the tensions between China and Taiwan and this region. So we, as a small country, we use this week of UNGA to reach these countries. We never normally meet to explain that we are paying attention to what is going on there as well, but also explaining what is happening in Europe, what is happening in Ukraine and what is the cost if we are not supporting Ukraine.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, in fact, the UN does have some limitations on what it can do.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Of course it did eventually vote on a Security Council resolution for a ceasefire, but there has to be will on the ground. Now, before you run off, I did want to take a minute. I told you I had one lighthearted question. I did want to ask you about a typical dish from the Estonian culture. I'm asking all of the ministers and diplomats we speak with this week, just to get a variety, you can tell us one of your favorite dishes, something you'd like to see served here at the UN, to represent Estonian culture perhaps, and a little bit about the cultural significance too.

Margus Tsahkna:

Yeah, we normally have very traditional dishes and it's very similar to like the German cuisine, but there's one specific thing. This is the blood sausage, so we are using the blood and then we make sausages from that. If I'm going to explain how we do that, though, I think nobody wants to eat that, so I'm not going to in details you don't make the blood sausage at home, you buy it yes, we do.

Margus Tsahkna:

Yeah, we do. My mother can do it very well. This, this is a traditional thing, but normally, of course, today's people, they are buying them from the shop, but it is something very specific for Estonia. But it's very tasteful.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Okay, but you don't actually slaughter the hog.

Margus Tsahkna:

Somebody do that.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Okay, because actually the inspiration for this was an aunt of mine who wrote cookbooks, and she did write about cooking on the farm, including hog killing.

Margus Tsahkna:

Time was one chapter and modern breeders do not understand it, I can tell you honestly that when I was younger and a student beginning of the 90s, when we had nothing after the collapse of the Soviet Union, we got during the collapse of soviet union, though, uh, we got, uh, during the restoration of the private property, we got back our farms and lands and actually my family, uh, we, we actually had the you know animals and we, we did everything ourselves.

Margus Tsahkna:

So I have, I have been the, the, farm country boy, I know everything I can do the blood sausages from the beginning.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Yeah, no, that's fascinating, but you don't really recommend it for the.

Margus Tsahkna:

No, I think that today it's much more easy to go and buy things from shop.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Just tell me, how long do you have to cure? Do you have to cure the blood sausage for a long time before?

Margus Tsahkna:

it's no, actually it takes, put it on the oven, maybe like half an hour or whatever. Oh really.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Yeah, oh, okay, so half an hour from making it to not from actually slaughtering it. No, no from that it takes From when you get the materials the sausage you can Google how to do it. Okay, I will. We'll look up that recipe. That's fascinating.

Margus Tsahkna:

Okay.

Frank Radford:

Well, thank you very much for your time today, and that's it from the Delegates Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who have graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and, if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicatesloungecom. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly, executive producer Frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.