The Delegates Lounge

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya on the Future of Belarus

• The Delegates Lounge LLC • Season 1 • Episode 4

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While at the NATO 75th Anniversary Summit in Washington, D.C. in July we had the good fortune to cross paths with Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya, the leader of the Belarusian opposition in exile. In our exclusive interview, she highlighted the moral duty of democratic nations to support both Belarus and Ukraine. Sviatlana frames this commitment as a crucial investment in global security.
 
We asked her how she saw the future in Belarus after Lukashenko. The conversation also brought into the light the significant role of Belarusian volunteers fighting in Ukraine and the profound risks they and their families face. Tune in for this riveting conversation on the future of Belarus and the broader battle for democracy around the world.

Speakers:

The host is J. Alex Tarquinio. @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

Our guest is Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya. @Tsihanouskaya on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

References:

The Washington Post opinion article by Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya and former U.S. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/07/09/nato-putin-lukashenko-pelosi-tikhanovskaya/

The Foreign Policy article about the election between Belarus and Slovenia for a seat on the United Nations Security Council by our podcast host J. Alex Tarquinio.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/09/belarus-slovenia-russia-united-nations-security-council-rotating-seat/





J. Alex Tarquinio:

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts. Welcome back.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

While we were covering NATO's 75th anniversary summit in Washington DC this summer, we had an unexpected encounter on the sidelines of the summit. Today, we're sharing our exclusive in-person interview with Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya. For the past four years, she's led the political opposition in exile to Alexander Lukashenko's 30-year rule of Belarus. We ran into her as she was on her way to dinner at the opening of the NATO summit and she graciously agreed to be interviewed in the hotel lobby. As many listeners know, she became a political figure in a most unenviable way. Her husband, sergei, a pro-democracy dissident with a popular YouTube channel, originally declared his intention to run against Lukashenko in 2020. After a brief campaign that was highly critical of Lukashenko, her husband was arrested on charges of inciting social hatred and sentenced to a lengthy prison term. His wife assumed the mantle of the opposition candidate and is widely believed to have won the election in 2020. Her exile inspired massive protests in Belarus Because I'm based at the United Nation headquarters.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I attempted to reach the Belarus mission to the UN to see if they wish to comment, but have not heard back. Here's my conversation with her from Washington this summer. Thank you so much for making time for us, really on the spur of the moment here at the NATO summit. It's wonderful to talk about the situation in your country and also what is going on at the NATO Summit this week. I did catch your interview on MSNBC's Morning Joe yesterday with Nancy Pelosi, and you and the Speaker Emeritus have written an op-ed in the Washington Post. Nato is a bulwark against tyranny. You're not shy about using terms like tyranny and dictatorship. You've been sentenced in absentia by the Lukashenko regime, as has Navalny's wife by Putin, and of course, your husband is still in prison. So what, if anything, could NATO do? You've talked about? You can't educate dictators. You have to fight, but you also want a peaceful transition in your nation, belarus. How do you reconcile those two?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

You know, fight against dictatorship shouldn't be about military, it shouldn't be about war. It's about showing strength Because, as I said, you know, dictators are very easily making alliances because they don't have to ask their people and their nations what they think about this. In democracies it's very difficult, you know, to explain the whole nation why it's important to support those who are fighting against dictatorship. And you have to unite your nation against this brutality, against this, against this evil and what dictators are doing. They are poisoning the minds of people, trying to persuade them that there are simple solutions to difficult situation. You know. But there are no difficult, no easy solutions. You populists are shouting, you know we have to appease. I can reeducate dictators. No, it will never happen.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

So I think that the democratic world is a very powerful world. They have all the possible tools to fight dictators. It's about economic restrictions, it's about political influence, it's about unity. When the democratic world shows undecisiveness, it is perceived as weakness by the regimes and dictators cross red line after red line, testing how far they can go until democracy will hold consistent policy and it's you know, as a person from the country who is suffering from the regime, from tyranny, I think that democracy might be more decisive. I really want to explain to people who enjoy democracy that look, it's also your moral obligation to help us, because if we don't stop, dictators here on our borders knock your doors, what are you going to do then? Will you be decisive? So it's cheaper for you, you know, to help us and helping us and Ukrainians it's not like charity, it's investment into your future security of all our world, or you know, at least our region.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

In the NATO communique yesterday, they made a much stronger statement than they have in the past about China as a decisive enabler of Russia's war in Ukraine. But China also has a powerful influence in your country, belarus its involvement in the railroads through China's Belt and Road Initiative and also during NATO. It's conducting joint military exercises near the Polish border in Belarus. Is China becoming a concern relative to your aspiration to establish democracy in your country?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

No, I think that all the countries that are supporting dictatorship and supporting repressions in these countries are a threat to us democratic forces, because I think that in these times of turbulence, where dictators are so easily making alliances and there's a huge struggle between democracy and dictatorship, uh, all the self-respected countries should be on the side of good. And just a couple of words about this communique. You know, I'm really. It's really important for us that Belarus is sounded there, but language is so important. We really want the world and NATO countries to distinguish between Belarusian regime and Belarusian people In this communique. Belarusian regime is helping Russia to invade Ukraine. It's Belarusian regime affected by China. You know Belarusian people will be different. We are pro-democratic, we are pro-European. We want to get rid of these Russian claws. We are helping Ukrainians as much as we can. So I just, you know, want to pay attention to this, despite the fact that Lukashenko has long been known as Europe's last dictator.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Until a few years ago, really, until the escalation of Russia's war in Ukraine, Belarus still had a seat at the table at many international forums. That has all changed. I'm thinking of last year and, as you know, I cover the United Nations most of the time. Last year, Belarus was really in line to get one of the rotating seats in the Security Council and had lost to a last-minute bid by Slovenia. Many people think that's because and had lost to Alaska and had been by Slovenia. Many people think that's because, obviously, of Lukashenko's support for the Kremlin's war in Ukraine and that had it not been for that, they may have actually gotten the seat of the table at Security Council. What would it take now to reestablish Belarus and what? Well, obviously, talk about your aspirations.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

Look, our policy and the policy of our allies should be isolate the regime politically, economically, but work with democratic forces of Belarus. Don't invite representatives of the regime for no forum, no events, because it will. You know lies who are spreading propagandistic narratives. You know liars who are spreading propagandistic narratives. Instead, show Belarusian people that you're working with proper Belarusians, with those who are fighting against dictatorship, who are fighting against, you know, this slow subjugation of our country. So and I see that for four years our democratic allies, you know they stopped working with the regime. They don't send ambassadors to Belarus. They don't invite Lukashenko's cronies to the events. Instead, they're sending special envoys to work with democratic forces who are mostly in exile at the moment.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

We form a last relationship with the USA, with the European Union. We formalize relationship with European Parliament, with many countries. So it's like clear signal for people that we are supporting you, that we are with you, not with the Lukashenko regime. So you know there are still some consulates, you know, in Belarus because many countries think that they have to keep the channel open with the dictator. Ma ybe I can agree with this. We can negotiate about release of political prisoners and other issues, but don't discuss fate of Belarus without participation of Belarusian people. Lukashenko doesn't represent our country. He lost elections in 2020. He seized power, unleashed the most brutal terror our country has seen for many, many decades, and now it's Belarusian people who have to decide, not him.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, in fact, you're widely believed to have won that election, but you say that he lost and you are described as the president-elect. What would you like to see the day after? There will come a point in time when Lukashenko is no longer the leader of Belarus in one way or another, and obviously I'm sure there are people waiting in the wings there on the other side who want to take power. But what would you like to see? Do you believe that you should become the president or an interim president Should there be fresh elections? Have you got a plan, I guess, for the day after Lukashenko?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

So our main aims in our fight is, first of all, to release all political prisoners. Second, to hold free and fair elections where people can choose their leader themselves. And, of course, our aim is to stay independent, to release our country from the claws of the Russian Empire, to save our sovereignty and turn to the European path of development. So we have many wonderful people who can become presidents of Belarus clever, smart people. My task now is to save the unity of Belarusians people. My task now is to save unity of Belarusians.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

I have already launched alternative institutions of power that can work for democratic Belarus. And you know I need to keep Belarus in focus on the international arena because when the moment comes, when Lukashenko disappears or something you know happens, we will have many, many challenges and we will maybe not have enough strength, you know, to cope with everything alone. We will need support and assistance of our democratic allies. And, of course, we have to work with Nomenklatura people now, because what Lukashenko is doing he tells that, oh, after you know these people come to power, they will hang you on the trees. You know, yeah, he's frightening people to cause hatred. You know, to us, and we are working with the Nomenklatura, showing that we are one country. We have to work together. We will have to restore, you know, B elarus, but of course, those who committed severe crimes against Belarusians, who committed crimes against Ukraine, have to be brought to accountability.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So you want to see fresh elections. Have you decided yet if you would run in those fresh democratic elections?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

No, I'm not going to participate because in 2020, I promised to Belarusian people that my role here is to be a person who will fight, you know, to organize these elections. I understand that I'm an accidental president, you know, in this situation, and just, I will be with you until we hold friendly elections and I fulfill my.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

As a transitional. Now I do want to turn more directly to the war in Ukraine. There is a Belarusian volunteer corps fighting to liberate the parts of eastern Ukraine currently occupied by Russia. Firstly, are you in contact with them and do they acknowledge you as the president-elect? I'm talking about the volunteers from Belarus who are volunteering. They're not officially there, but they're volunteer fighters in Ukraine.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

So when the war has started, you know, thousands of Belarusian men went to Ukraine as volunteers to fight shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainians with the Ukrainians, because we as Belarusians understand that the fate of Belarus and Ukraine intertwined, that without free Ukraine there will be no independent and free Belarus, but also vice versa Without free Belarus there will be constant threat to Ukrainians. So Belarusian regiment is the biggest international one in Ukraine, because we are fighting for our freedom as well. Of course, I'm in contact with those brave people who are also fighting at the front line of this fight. We are trying to support the families of these volunteers because while they are fighting in Ukraine, their relatives in Belarus are being suppressed by the regime, are being detained by this regime.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So you do believe the regime knows who these volunteers are and their consequences.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

Yeah, we have to be very cautious about naming people in our movement, in our volunteer movement in Ukraine, because they have taken revenge on their relatives. They confiscated property of these people, punishing them as much as they can, but people are fighting there and Ukrainian military leadership say that Belarusian soldiers are brave.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Do you see them as liberators of eastern Ukraine, of the Donbass and all the areas they're fighting on, of eastern ukraine, of the donbass and all the areas they're fighting on? And also, do you think, once that war is over, that they may try to liberate belarus?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

so I, um, I think that, uh, I really want peaceful changes in my country. But, of course, these military volunteers who are now fighting in Ukraine, they create huge threat and fragility in Belarusian dictatorship Because they also think that they might come. They I don't know we might make coup d'etat, I don't know. Of course, I think that you know, only volunteers cannot bring changes to Belarus. Only civil society cannot bring changes. It's like obligation and responsibility of every Belarusian person, wherever he is inside the country, outside the country, in Ukraine, in the USA, and everybody is contributing. Belarusian diaspora here in the USA. It looks like they're so far away what they can do in Belarus, but they're helping from here to repress people. They're helping political prisoners. They are supporting our independent media. They're supporting our cultural identity. You know, it's so important for us to know that Belarusian diaspora exists because we didn't know about this before 2020. Before 2020, Belarusians all over the world were only Belarusians living separately. Now it's a really strong community.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

That's fascinating In a way. The identity, the distinct identity of Belarusians, the global identity has really been borrowed you know, honestly speaking, we had after 2020, we had to rediscover Belarus to the world.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

For three decades it was percepted as part of Russia, the appendix, you know. Nobody knew where Belarus was. What is Belarus? And we, like, said loudly we are not Russians, we are different nations with our own culture, language, national identity, and now Russia wants to erase, together with Lukashenko, everything Belarusian to save what we have.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

No, it is a complicated, I guess, linguistic and cultural history. As a foreigner who does not know the language, I think the semantics is actually part of the confusion, the name Belarusian versus Belarusian. I mean, have you felt that you've had to do a lot of education over the last couple of years of well-meaning foreigners who maybe don't understand, because of the Cold War history and also just linguistically, that Belarus sounds so much like Russia?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

Yeah, absolutely. We had to learn people that Belarus is not white Russia, it's not Belarus because we have named Republic of Belarus, but because of Soviet Union time. You know it was perception that it's white Russia, russia, but it's not. You know the semantic of this word from Russia it's a root rootania road, you know, from Baltic Sea to Black Sea and we have to explain this. That's why it's so important to tell about Belarus on experts level in universities. You know, to our future, you know generations and, of course, in the connection of the war in Ukraine, belarus also like sounded differently, because nobody never knew that Belarusian and Ukrainian languages are very similar, but Belarusian and Russian languages are very similar, but Belarusian and Russian they're very different.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I've heard that it's as much or more than the difference between, say, Spanish and Italian. They're obviously on this similar family tree, but the two don't understand each other unless they've learned.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

Russian. That's right. But you know also we have to why I'm talking so much about national identity. It's so important, but you know also we have to why I'm talking so much about national identity. It's so important because, you know, I'm an ordinary Belarusian citizen and all my life, you know, in schools, on the streets, everybody spoke Russian. Of course, I was speaking Russian at all also, and Belarusian language was educated as foreign language.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Which language did you speak at home? I'm curious you spoke Russian in school, but which was your home language?

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

Russian, and only in the village with my grandparents I spoke Belarusian. That's why I know Belarusian language. But now, after 2020, this dedication to everything Belarusian became so vivid among Belarusians. More and more people started to speak Belarusian language. Our children started to speak Belarusian and read Belarusian language even more than we did in our childhood. So Lukashenko in 2020, he boosted the importance of national identity. So, yeah, and maybe in 2020, maybe Belarusians started to be proud Belarusians, because we really were like shamed. When you go abroad and a person asks you where are you from and you know that this person have never heard about Belarus, and you say, oh, I'm from like Chernobyl, or near Poland, or near Russia, because it was such a shame. Nobody knows about Belarus.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Everybody knows where Belarus, everybody knows where so in an odd way, do you have Putin in the Kremlin's war in Ukraine? In an odd way has that boosted well, both the foreign understanding of Belarus, but also your own personal pride of the global war it's about 2020.

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya:

It's about 2020 uprising, because at that moment, belarusians felt each other, they felt our nation. In 2022, belarusians felt that we are not the same as Russians Because in 2020, it wasn't our geopolitical choice, just wanted to get rid of Lukashenko's regime. Putin supported Lukashenko and, of course, people understood that Putin is on the side of evil. But 2020, belarusians so clearly have these simplistic ambitions. We can't imagine that we can't support this war. Our army would never, never join the Russian army, because we can't understand how it is to fight or kill or to be killed by our Ukrainian neighbors. We don't have this, so that's why it's so important to distinguish Belarusians and Russians.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Thank you so much for the fascinating conversation and for making time for us in this very busy NATO summit in Washington. Thank you again.

Frank Radford:

And that's it from the Delegates Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who've graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamour for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or, from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and, if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at infothedelicatesloungecom. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly executive producer, frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.