The Delegates Lounge

NATO's Turning Point: Insights From ESTONIA, SPAIN and CZECHIA ministers

• The Delegates Lounge LLC • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Hear directly from the defense minister of Estonia and the foreign ministers of Spain and Czechia. We caught up with these high-level ministers on the sidelines of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s 75th Anniversary Summit in Washington, D.C. this summer. Our conversation highlights the urgency for NATO allies to increase military spending and support Ukraine amidst the ongoing conflict with Russia. Delve into the significance of past NATO summits on U.S. politics and the growing security concerns in the Indo-Pacific region, showcasing the interconnectedness of global threats and the importance of transatlantic solidarity.

In this episode, we’ll explore NATO’s southern and eastern flanks in exclusive interviews that J. Alex Tarquinio, our host in The Delegates Lounge, held with Estonia’s Defense Minister Hanno Pevkur, Spain’s Foreign Minister José Manuel Albares, and Czechia’s Foreign Minister Jan Lipavský. Each of the ministers emphasized the global nature of security threats today, and how what happens in the Middle East and even as far off as the Indo-Pacific region affects the security of the Transatlantic alliance. We also spoke about the use of sanctions. This was before the new set of sanctions imposed by the United States on August 23rd on hundreds of businesses and business people to counteract what Washington describes as sanctions evasion, which we discuss in the introduction to the episode.

Speakers:

J. Alex Tarquinio (host). @alextarquinio of @delegateslounge on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

Hanno Pevkur, Estonia’s Defense Minister (guest). @HPevkur of @MoD_Estonia on X, formerly known as Twitter.

José Manuel Albares, Spain’s Foreign Minister (guest). @jmalbares of @SpainMFA on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

Jan Lipavský, Czechia’s Foreign Minister (guest). @JanLipavsky of @CzechMFA on X, formerly known as Twitter. 

References:

The NATO Washington Summit Declaration referred to the People’s Republic of China as a “decisive enabler of Russia’s war against Ukraine” and to Ukraine’s “irreversible” path towards NATO membership.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_227678.htm

This year, NATO estimates that 23 of the 32 member states will reach the goal of spending at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defense.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_226465.htm

A few days before attending the NATO Washington Summit, Japan announced that it would work with Cambodia on a project to bolster Ukraine’s training and equipment for demining operations.

https://apnews.com/article/japan-cambodia-demining-ukraine-278a7c572b93ee3e9b4d1aa4c912a672

On August 23, the United States imposed new sanctions on around 400 companies and individuals — both inside and outside of Russia — that Washington accuses of enabling the Kremlin’s war in Ukraine by supporting Moscow’s military-industrial base. 

https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy2546

https://www.state.gov/new-measures-to-degrade-russias-wartime-economy/

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Welcome to the Delegates Lounge. Pull up a chair. I'm Alex Tarquinio, a journalist based at the United Nations here in New York City and your emcee for this podcast featuring some of the most influential minds in the world today. Settle in for some riveting tete-a-tete, available wherever you listen to podcasts, Do they?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

have protection needs. Yes, welcome back. Ordinarily, you'll find us near the Delegates' Lounge at the United Nations in New York City. That hurly-burly that you're hearing was recorded earlier this summer near the Delegates Lounge at NATO's 75th Anniversary Summit in Washington DC. We met there with Estonia's Defense Minister and with the foreign ministers of Spain and the Czech Republic. For our interview with Norway's foreign minister, also from the sidelines of the summit, refer to our episode called the High North Winter, is Going.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

More than anything else, the indispensable role that the United States plays within NATO contributes to the perception of US presidents as the unofficial leaders of the free world. Unquestionably, NATO summits can impact how US presidents are viewed both abroad and especially at home. I've observed this alchemy in action twice In Washington, while perched on the press riser when President Joe Biden misspoke and introduced Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky as President Putin, one of his most excruciating gaffes that ultimately persuaded Biden to step down from the presidential race. Similarly, five years ago in London, at NATO's 70th anniversary summit, I was waiting for President Donald Trump's final briefing when he bailed on it after a video of some world leaders making fun of him went viral, an incident that was swiftly parodied in an SNL cold open. So NATO matters not just to the mutual self-defense of the allies, but also to US politics, whether intentionally or not.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

During our conversations with government ministers on the margins of the Washington summit, it became clear that the alliance had reached a turning point. In one sense, russia's invasion of Ukraine has forced it to recollect its organizational memory and refocus on its original goal of transatlantic security. In another sense, the potential for a wider war in the Middle East and growing uneasiness in the Indo-Pacific are a reminder of the interconnectedness of our world and of the need for NATO to make ready for future rude awakenings farther afield. These sentiments were echoed in a dinner conversation I had with Japanese government officials. We broke bread on the eve of the meeting between NATO allies and guests from four Indo-Pacific democracies Japan, south Korea, australia and New Zealand collectively dubbed the IP4. In NATO parlance, the Japanese officials kept describing the security of the North Atlantic and the Indo-Pacific regions as inseparable. Japan's post-war constitution prevents it from providing lethal aid to Ukraine. But a few days before the NATO summit, japan announced a joint project with Cambodia to share knowledge and technology on landmine removal with Ukraine. Although the summit in July did not advance Ukraine's membership aspirations, the final declaration did allude to the country's irreversible path towards NATO membership. Declaration also referred to the People's Republic of China as a decisive enabler of Russia's war against Ukraine and called on Beijing to cease all material and political support to Russia's war effort. A few weeks later, the US doubled down on this demand by imposing a raft of sanctions aimed at thwarting Russia's military industrial base, including so-called secondary sanctions against Chinese companies and those in other countries.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Now to our first guest. Estonia, along with its Baltic neighbors Latvia and Lithuania, joined NATO in 2004. The three Baltic countries had regained their independence from the Soviet Union in 1991 through the Singing Revolution, a series of popular demonstrations that included the singing of patriotic songs. We caught up with Estonia's Defense Minister, Hanno Pevkur, on the sidelines of the NATO summit luckily for listeners, in one of the quieter corners of the media center. Estonia's Defense Minister was appointed to that role two years ago by the country's then Prime Minister, Kaja Kallas, who herself stepped down two weeks after the NATO summit to become the European Union's top diplomat. Pevkur retained the position of defense minister when a new Estonian government took office on July 23rd. On that day, he was meeting with US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin at the Pentagon to discuss transatlantic security and their mutual support for Ukraine. Pevkur met with us on the margins of the Washington summit, right before the July meeting of the North Atlantic Council, the principal political decision-making body within NATO.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Estonia has been pushing its NATO allies to raise the bar for military spending above 2% of their economy. Estonia is spending closer to 3.5% of the country's gross domestic product on the military, second only to Poland among NATO allies. Overall, the allies have come a long way since setting the spending goal in 2014, when only three of the member states were spending at least 2% on defense. This year, nato estimates that 23 of the 32 member states will reach that target. Here is our interview.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Minister, for speaking with us in the midst of the NATO summit. We realize this is an incredibly busy couple of days for you. Nato is spread pretty thin. Obviously you are dealing with the war in Ukraine, but also tomorrow you will have a meeting with guests from the Asia-Pacific. We have Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand a tension between NATO's traditional focus on peace and security in Europe and the North Atlantic and the broader focus on global threats. How do you think NATO is balancing that and does it need to make changes in its doctrine to balance those two priorities?

Hanno Pevkur:

Well, I believe one thing we have to understand is that the global situation affects also our situation in Europe. We clearly see that the US is heavily looking also at what is going on in the Pacific and we need the US as a strong ally, also inside of NATO and transatlantic zones. So this is why we cannot look aside, so we have to be there. We have to be very clear that what is going on in the Pacific, what is going on in the Middle East, so this also affects our security. But of course, we also understand that the main focus still at the moment should be in Ukraine, because this defines also the future for the decades in Transatlantic zone.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

There is the dual threat and you mentioned the US is a Pacific power as well. If it were threatened in the Pacific region, could that be a trigger for Article 5? As a defense minister, would you consider it is a threat for that reason?

Hanno Pevkur:

I visited recently in the Pacific and I was in Singapore and talking also to different think tanks there, so I didn't get the feeling that it's so alarming situation at the moment there. Of course we all understand that it can all suddenly pop up and the situation will be changed, but still I didn't get the feeling that we are still in red.

Hanno Pevkur:

We are already in red in the.

Hanno Pevkur:

Pacific. So this gives me the certainty to say that, still, our main focus at the moment should be in Ukraine. And of course, we have to wait also for the US elections to see what the new administration old new administration will decide regarding Ukraine, because for me it is a strategic question that will we keep helping Ukraine to fight with Russia or we help Ukraine to win against Russia? So this is a question which we have to answer.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, precisely that is your big and final program of the summit tomorrow. On Ukraine, what type of outcome do you expect and do you think that NATO will be doing enough in the Ukraine war?

Hanno Pevkur:

Well, Estonia's position has been very clear from the very beginning that Ukraine has a place in NATO and will be NATO. The question is about timing, and the outcome here in Washington should be that we will give a very clear signal to Ukraine that, yes, please continue with these reforms, please win this war with our help, and then you will be a member of.

Hanno Pevkur:

NATO

Hanno Pevkur:

And my advice is not to concentrate so much on wording. So wording is important, but when Estonia joined NATO, we didn't have an invitation. So we had a membership action plan, so Finland and Sweden had an invitation. So it has been different or different. So this is why my advice is to concentrate on helping Ukraine and, on the other hand, making this crucial decision do we want to help to fight or do we want to help to win? And this defines also the future for Ukraine and this also gives the perspective what to do, because when we will see in the final communique that there will be a war irreversible, that's good and that's a good message to Ukraine. But still, at this very moment, ukraine needs fighter jets, ukraine needs ammunition, ukraine needs air defense assets in order to kick Russians out from their own territory, from Ukrainian territory.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, it sounds like you're saying the commitment to continue the pathway to NATO membership for Ukraine is important to send that signal, since Putin is obviously trying to make that a condition from his side to give up that aspiration of Ukraine. But specifically, in terms of support, in terms of weapons, financial aid and also sanctions, Are they doing enough? Because there has been some criticism, particularly of the sanctions, that they've been ineffective, because Russia is still getting material and so-called dual-use products from China. Are those three tracks weapons, financial support and sanctions sufficient, or does NATO need to revisit those?

Hanno Pevkur:

It's even not about NATO as an organization or as an alliance. It's about the member states and it's about the countries who are helping Ukraine. So we've come out from our side with the 0.25 initiative that we should give military aid to ukraine. Uh, yearly, annual, at least 0.25 percent of our g.

Hanno Pevkur:

This is a relatively small price to pay for the freedoms, what we are defending in in in nato and uh, and this is why, of course, obviously it is not enough what we are doing at the moment, because otherwise the, the war would have been already over, when we are doing enough and and this is why, you know, we, we are very vocal in that that we, we have to increase our help to ukraine and and, of course, in that sense, it is very interesting to see what the new administration of the united states government side. So it's you know, we hear different rumors also from what does your crystal ball tell you?

Hanno Pevkur:

My crystal ball doesn't want to speculate. My crystal ball has the answers and this is why you know, my advice, while speaking also to the congressmen and congresswomen has always been that you know that let's make this decision, that do we want to win this war or not to fight?

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, you mentioned spending. Then there's the bigger issue of what NATO refers to as burden sharing. You're well beyond the 2 percent minimum goal and you have said or Estonia has said that the goals should actually be raised to what? 2.5% or 3%? Do you think that's realistic, given that there are still a few countries in NATO that haven't reached the 2% and there's obviously reluctance on some of their populations to change parties? Is that realistic, and how soon do you think it should be done?

Hanno Pevkur:

To be honest it is not a question is it realistic or not? This is the necessity, what we see, because Russia is investing at the moment 7 to 9% of their GDP to defense. So when they are doing in such amount, then my question is that, are we doing enough? And the answer to that is that no, we are not doing enough, and even though Estonia is investing at the moment 3.4%, a bit more even, and we are moving probably to the higher percentages.

Hanno Pevkur:

That is not enough because when we take the cold war era in early 80s, then NATO countries invested close to four percent, some even more, five, even more, and we didn't have war. Now we have a war in in Europe. That means that even when we're investing 3%, then part of that goes to Ukraine and mostly it should be to increase our own capabilities and it's not only to invest new money. It is important to invest new money to new capabilities and to increase also the ammunition stockpiles. So we have to do you know, you cannot put new money in and say that okay, we will increase the salaries of the of the soldiers. So this is also important. But the main focus has to be on that, that we are increasing our capabilities and and we are giving the SACER all the necessary powers and rights to decide when, when there is need for that, and we need to guarantee also the executability of the regional plans.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

You mentioned Russia's spending, and it should be noted that the Russian Federation GDP is far below that of the collective NATO allies, so they are spending at a higher percentage of GDP. That being said, they're also stitching together support in China for so-called dual-use products, north Korea and Iran for drones. And in North Korea there are also questions on what type of exchange, what type of information might be exchanged there, and I mentioned earlier that sanctions have been criticized. Is there more that NATO and its allies and partners could do to discourage some of these exchanges?

Hanno Pevkur:

Of course, there is many things what we can do more. There are many things what we can do more, and you know, you mentioned that, yes, the Russian economy is smaller. That's true, but the reality also is that when we are producing, let's say, 155 ammunition, which is the most common ammunition for artillery, when we are producing that for around 3,500 US dollars per piece, then Russia is producing 152, which is their mainly used caliber, for 1,000 dollars. So there is a difference of three, four times and this also has to be kept in mind that there is a difference also in economy size, but also there is a difference in production capacities and production price. So this levels more or less up the expenditure. But now, coming to the sanctions, yes, we have to definitely do more and we also have to look at these secondary routes.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So because you mean secondary sanctions on countries that are importing the? Are we?

Hanno Pevkur:

calling them secondary sanctions. The point is that when we have sanctions on Russia, then we also have to see that the different products we are selling are not going to pass china or kazakhstan or or azerbaijan, or some countries you know, where they can move freely to russia.

Hanno Pevkur:

So this is important. And then also, as you mentioned very rightly that the dual use products, so, and you can take chips from the breast pumps. What we have discovered, you know that that the breast pumps are delivered to Russia as a civil and you're taking a chip from there, you know, for the rocket. So this is something you know we have to keep in mind. And, of course, you know it's also, from my point of view, also moral question to the companies that when you're selling something to Russia and then when you see a huge increase of these products, then probably there are not more women who are giving labors, there are other reasons behind that and please look very carefully what you are sending to Russia and who are the buyers in Russia.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Fascinating point. I did want to bring the discussion a little closer to home. In the Baltics you obviously have some unique risks for the proximity to Russia, the famous Svelte gap. Also, when there's the huge leap forward in drone warfare and in AI interference with buoys, interference with GPS, these are a lot of unique risks you face because of your neighborhood. Do you think NATO is doing enough in that regard?

Hanno Pevkur:

Well, as we are all NATO, then it means that we have to do more in both states. And we are doing so, as you rightly mentioned. I do know that we are increasing our defense spending quite dramatically and we will continue doing that.

Hanno Pevkur:

And of course also for the internal security for our services, it is important to get also the means to control the low space. So for the small drones and yes, unfortunately we see that, you know, russia is not respecting any international law. Is it water or river or Finnish Gulf, or is it airspace? So they are violating the international law constantly. They do not care about that because they know that they will not be sanctioned or there will be no one who sends a fine to Russia or some kind of punishment for that. So this is why we have to be very clear that, yes, on one hand we have to stay calm and to understand that this is definitely the threshold for Article 5. And on the other hand we have to react on that. And of course at the moment we have a discussion also in the government to increase quite significantly also the budget for the Minister of Interior deal with that kind of threats, what we see at the moment on the eastern border.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, we began this conversation by talking about the fact that NATO is spread increasingly. Martha, is there anything over the next two days at this summit that you feel you're not discussing enough, or that the NATO allies should focus on more that you're not yet doing at this summit?

Hanno Pevkur:

We have to understand that it's a summit, which means that mostly the heads of the governments and the states are speaking. There are many practical issues we have to solve on different levels On the governmental or the head of government's level. It is important to keep the message and to keep the focus on the most important things, and this is the membership of NATO for Ukraine. This is the new regional plan executability, this is the development of the capabilities, this is defense spendings.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So we have to stay in summit on that level because we do not have much time, so we have different sessions and and then, when the political guidance have been given, then we can go to the details to discuss already on the working in the working groups, but in general, are there any threats that you feel that the once you get to the level of the working groups that you should focus on more preparing not just for the coming years but farther down the field for the 21st century threats that we spoke about earlier?

Hanno Pevkur:

Well, there are so many Because still, you know, my understanding is very clear that first you need to have fresh money and your money get the new capability. When you have the new money, then you have to go to the contracts for the new capability, for the additional ammunition and and and to get the position that we can clearly say that yes, the regional plans are fully executable, because today they are executable with some risks and, and we know there is risk. So obviously we have given a lot of air defense assets to Ukraine.

Hanno Pevkur:

This is one of the risks Ammunition, the same Many other capabilities, so targeting. So there are things we need to do at home and we need to do at NATO level. So this is why, you know, let's get the political message from the leaders of the country and countries, and then we can. You know, let's get the political message from the leaders of the country and countries, and then we can, you know, dig into the details which have to be solved on more military or practical level.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, thank you again, mr Minister. So much for your time today and good luck at the summit.

Hanno Pevkur:

Thank you very much. It was good to be here, good to be here.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

During a break in between NATO's morning meeting with guests from the Indo-Pacific region and its afternoon meeting with Ukraine's President Zelensky, we sat down with the foreign ministers of Spain and the Czech Republic. We chatted in the summit's cavernous media center. So that's authentic NATO hubbub, you'll hear in the background. Spain has been a member of NATO since 1982. Ever since becoming Spain's foreign minister in a cabinet reshuffle three years ago, José Manuel Albares has been urging the organization to pay more attention to its southern flank.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

At the Washington summit, the allies agreed to increase NATO's engagement in the Middle East, north Africa and the Sahel regions and on July 23rd, secretary General Jens Stoltenberg appointed a Spanish diplomat to the newly created role of Special Representative for the Southern Neighborhood. Here are the thoughts that he shared with us. Thank you, mr Minister, for making time for us in the midst of a very busy NATO summit. I wanted to delve right into the summit. This morning you had a meeting with what's called the IP4, the Indo-Pacific Corps partners. Can you talk a little bit about what the NATO allies in general and also what your country feels that that adds to NATO, because there is a bit of an identity question on whether NATO should focus more on the traditional aspect of the alliance between Europe and North America, or whether to focus on global threats to security.

José Manuel Albares :

Definitely, nato is a defense organization for Euro-Atlantic security. That's the core of what we do, and today we are concentrated in the threat that represents the Russian aggression to Ukraine. But we know that in today's world, more than ever, we need friends and we need partners as much as we need allies. So I think very positive that the NATO allies, we meet with those friends, with those partners, because we must not forget at the end that NATO is a family of democracy. So we share values and therefore we have a very interesting dialogue with those that, in the Indo-Pacific, share our values.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

So there's a values-based relationship with the democracies there, but there also are threats emanating from their region. We've seen, for example, that the Kremlin has purchased weapons from North Korea and has also done things against sanctions against North Korea, and there's also great concern about China selling potentially dual-use technology to Russia. So have these threats become inseparable? Does NATO really have a choice about looking more broadly?

José Manuel Albares :

Since many years ago we have started to talk about the 360 degrees NATO, because of course, in such a globalized and interlinked world we cannot define specific regional areas in which some threats are present and other than not. Everything is interlinked. I come from a Mediterranean southern European country. We have been pushing forward for the southern flank to be introduced in the strategic concept and we got it in the summit in Madrid, because it's impossible to say that our security is only threatened from one specific country or region. So definitely we need that look of 360 degrees.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

In fact, even though NATO is a regional defensive alliance, there are sub-regions. I mean, obviously the Scandinavian countries are worried about the Arctic threats. The East, they have their own difficult neighborhood in the eastern flank. Your concerns with the southern flank what do you hope to get out of this special envoy for the southern flank and what do you see as the potential risks that are particular to your southern flank.

José Manuel Albares :

There are basically two things. We have good partners in the south, with Mauritania and with Jordan, and we need to increase our partners in the south, to increase our political dialogue, our cooperation with them. What's happened in the Sahel has a direct impact, for instance, on European Union and on all of our countries, and at the same time, we see how terrorism, the hybrid use of regular migration or energy supplies can be also used to threaten our sovereignty. So we have to raise all these issues.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Does NATO need to do more about threats that are specifically rising, threats of the 21st century? I'm thinking the development of AI and also drone warfare, and if these become linked, we could have lethal autonomous weapons. Are you concerned that NATO is doing enough about these types of threats?

José Manuel Albares :

Absolutely. I think that IA and its applications into the military sphere, cyber security, all those are today real concern and real threats, and we see how traditional warfare. It's parallel today in any war that we see around the world, with cyber security attacks. Of course, the scope of possibility that artificial intelligence gives to the military sphere is huge. So therefore, we are focusing in it, we are right doing it in NATO and we must continue on that path.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I wanted to ask you a little bit about sanctions. As a foreign minister, I understand. I mean, obviously NATO is not particularly involved in this, these are more related to you in the European Union. But have these been affected? Because a great deal of time and energy has been put by the EU into sanctions against Russia and there are concerns that they're finding workarounds with China and elsewhere to receive the equipment they need for their war, to prosecute their war in Ukraine, and also that they are selling their oil to countries such as China and even India. Is there more that could be done on sanctions, or are sanctions just one tool in the toolbox and this is as effective as they can get?

José Manuel Albares :

In European Union. We have put forward so far 14 packages of sanctions and as far as Spain is concerned, we are always ready to add a new package of sanctions if it's effective to reduce the war effort of Russia and to bring peace, a just peace, to Ukraine. Sanctions are important first because we have to reduce the war effort of Russia this illegal and unjust war cannot be waged with our money. And secondly, because we need a political response to a war that is a clear war of aggression, breaching the United Nations Charter. That political response as well. Of course, every time we impose sanctions there is a convention. People try to find a way, how they and we spend a great deal of time reflecting how we can prevent that same convention. But still, sanctions are effective. Sanctions are a political response. Also, we cannot be unfolding to this war of aggression. And thirdly, sanctions need some time to start to be really effective, but definitely I'm sure that without the sanctions, the capacity of Russia to continue this war would be even greater.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, nato is a hard power alliance. Obviously, is there more that it can be doing diplomatically, I mean in your role as a foreign minister. Is there more that it needs to do?

José Manuel Albares :

From a diplomatic point of view, unity, coherence. This is very important. We must continue to unite. That's the best tool that we have for our security and to help, for instance, Ukraine. And coherence we need and we have right now the catastrophic humanitarian situation in Gaza the global south. The perception coming from the global south, and very clearly from Arab countries, is that we have two standards, double standards, one for Ukraine, one from Gaza. We must work more on that coherence.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

In fact I'm normally based actually at the United Nations and there's a strong feeling there that actually Russia has had some effectiveness of making its argument that the Ukraine war is a European issue and they don't really care about the global South. Do you think that's an effective argument and what can the EU and NATO and other organizations like that to counteract that Russian argument?

José Manuel Albares :

It's part of the disinformation campaign, and every time I talk with our Latin American friends or with our African friends, I always tell them don't mistake, this is a war in Europe, but this is not a European war, it's a war against the United Nations Charter. I think that this is the clear example of a war of aggression and an imperialistic war. So we must continue doing this argument and to pose the same principles, for Gaza also helps to back our argument Because we are at the NATO summit.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I did want to ask you about what NATO calls burden sharing. You are one of the countries that, shall I say, is working towards the 2% goal, but meanwhile Estonia has now called for that goal to be raised to 2.5 or 3%. First of all, do you think it's realistic to raise the goal now, while some countries are still working towards the 2%? And also, how strong is the support of the Spanish population for NATO and for higher defense spending, given the threats today?

José Manuel Albares :

Spain has made a clear commitment reaching 2% in 2029, and we are working towards that. Finance is an important part of what we do, but of course, also the deployment of soldiers. For instance, our soldiers and our troops are present in Estonia and we have been part of the security of the Baltic since many, many years ago, and also in the eastern flank, and we are also present in the NATO mission in Iraq and we are 10 points above the 20% of investment in capacities. So there is a bunch of it. Sometimes we only focus on the 2%, but the commitment is also shown in different directions. The Russian aggression to Ukraine has raised the awareness in the Spanish population of how important to be part of NATO is for our security, and seeing countries that traditionally were neutral, even pacifist as a way it was in their national identity as Finland and Sweden it's another proof that today, nato is more effective and needed than ever.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I know your time is limited now. I did want you to talk a little bit more specifically about Spain's contribution to support Ukraine, because it's not only, of course, the 2% threshold, but how that money is spent. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about that?

José Manuel Albares :

We have signed. About a month ago, president Zelensky visited Madrid and we signed a bilateral agreement of security with a commitment of 1 billion euros of aid to Ukraine. Since the very beginning of the war, since the very first day, we have been supported, even military equipment to Ukraine defense Leopard tanks, ammunition. Of course, from a diplomatic and humanitarian point of view, we have also a large humanitarian program in Ukraine and we have 200,000 Ukrainians with a specific status of refugees in Spain and we are going to be next to Ukraine as long as it takes and what we really want is peace for Ukraine. Everything we do is for the Ukrainians and President Zelensky to defend its sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its freedom, and we want this war to end with a just peace. An unfair war cannot end with an unfair peace, and a just peace is a peace within the principles of the United Nations.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Thank you very much for your time. Finally, we caught up with Jan Lipavsky, who joined the Czech parliament seven years ago and has served as the foreign minister for nearly three years. He belongs to a new generation of Eastern European politicians and countries that broke away from the Soviet Union a generation ago. He was a small child when Czechoslovakia gained its independence in the Velvet Revolution in 1989, and when, three years later, it dissolved by mutual agreement into two independent countries, the Slovak Republic and the Czech Republic. His country, which is also known by the shorter name of Czechia, joined NATO in 1999. The country announced a Czech-led initiative to resupply Kiev with ammunition at the Munich Security Conference in February. While the US Congress was holding up funding for Ukraine. The Czechs are using donations from governments to buy ammunition on the global market. Their first deliveries began arriving in Ukraine this summer. Here's our conversation. Good afternoon, minister. Thank you so much for making time for us in your busy summer schedule.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Thank you. I want to start right in talking about the Czech government and the Czech population's commitment to the support of Ukraine, and your Prime Minister, Petr Fiala, conceded with a plan to support Ukraine and it was very timely because it was during the period when approval for further support was had up in the US Congress and how important was it to get that aid. Do you feel that it was a decisive time to do that?

Jan Lipavský:

So there's a saying that who helps first helps the most. So I think it fits to say so. But this was almost like two years ago. Right Now the war is raging and we need to continue to do projects like this. So currently it is the Czech Ammunition Initiative which is bringing together money of donors and the resources of the countries around the world which are willing to, on a commercial basis, sell ammunition and to bring it to Czechia to refurbish it and send it to Ukraine so it can defend itself from the Russian imperialistic aggression, but as well as the other initiatives like the initiative to bring more anti-assistance into Ukraine. So the war is a really complex matter. It's not about one trick or one thing. It's necessary to continue and to be dedicated to protect our free world.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Meeting right before the meeting, or actually people could hear in the background. Listeners can hear actually is the start of the meeting, so the NATO leaders discuss Ukraine. What do your leader and the combined NATO leaders hope to get out of this meeting in terms of outcome?

Jan Lipavský:

I think it's a strong message to Vladimir Putin that his sick imperialistic dream won't come true, that we are standing behind Ukraine, that we are doing everything to protect Europe from Russian malign influence, from hybrid threats and from his war of aggression against Ukraine. And the people support Ukraine until the peace.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

This morning you met with it's called here the IP4, but the Indo-Pacific four countries of Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, and this is now the third year that they've been coming to the NATO Leaders Summit. This is now the third year that they've been coming to the NATO Leaders Summit. What do you hope to get out of that partnership, and is that related in any way to Russia's war in Ukraine and also the threats in Asia-Pacific? How do you see those?

Jan Lipavský:

You know, security is more and more global one. I was recently traveling India, Australia, Japan with this message Indo-Pacific security is directly connected to European security. Two examples Iran supporting Houthis, giving them the best weapon, stalling the maritime route, one of the most trafficked places in the world, basically stalling and stopping and disturbing trade between China in the Pacific and Europe. Another example Vladimir Putin traveling to Pyongyang, visiting Kim Jong-un and bringing back security deals and lots of ammunition and things like that. It's also as a direct implication on the battlefield in Ukraine and it is an implication into security for the Korean Peninsula. So we need to discuss, we need to be in touch, we need to be working on alignment of our positions. Of course, those are partners. Nato is responsible for the transatlantic area, but we know that many of the challenges are global ones, including the rise of new technologies and emerging technologies fiber threats, ai, things like that. We have to be profound and have a lot of discussion about it.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

In fact, North Korea is obviously already one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in the world because of its arms programs, its nuclear program. So I don't know how much more NATO can do or the Allies can do. China, on the other hand, is suspected of exporting a lot of dual-use products to Russia for its war. Is there more that it should be doing?

Jan Lipavský:

regarding China, I'm talking about the NATO alliance we need to send a clear signal that it's not possible to enable Russia war of aggression, Russia war against international norms. Eu already sanctioned a few Chinese companies for the direct connection with Russian counterparts and we need to be signaling to China that we are ready to continue with that.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well. Regarding war technology, one thing that has certainly come out of the war in Ukraine is a very rapid evolution in drone technology. With also rapid improvements in AI, you could see more lethal autonomous weapons in the future. Is NATO doing enough to counter the threat of the lies in drone warfare and lethal autonomous weapons, given the new security environment?

Jan Lipavský:

I think this is where our close connection with Ukraine comes into force, and it's our advantage, because Ukraine and the Ukrainian battlefield is the place where the development is happening daily. And through being in close cooperation with Ukraine, Even NATO the military companies from NATO are having business with Ukraine common projects. So this is the way how to keep the pace.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

But is NATO doing enough? On the economic front, for example, a lot of energy was expended on sanctions, the initiation of full-scale invasion, and there's now questions about whether they're actually working.

Jan Lipavský:

You know NATO is not doing sanctions as such, the G7 or the EU or the US government deciding that NATO is more responsible for, let's say, defense planning and the armies to be ready to face it. Of course, to have an army, to have enough stockpile, you need solid economy, but those discussions are more relying on the national state as such than that it would be a team for nativism.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I wanted to ask you about what NATO refers to as burden sharing, the idea that each country should pay its 2%. Estonia has called actually for that. Minimum rates literally to say 2.5% or 3%. Even though most countries are now 2%, some have not yet reached that bar. Do you feel that the bar should be raised from 2%?

Jan Lipavský:

You know it's not about the percentage. It's about to fulfill what is needed to have enough units to protect Europe from all threats. That's called capability target. They are not the public one, but every state knows what he needs to fulfill. The planning is in a full swing, so maybe we will need more than 2% to fulfill all those capability targets. That's true, and we should be focused on having 100% of the capability targets fulfilled rather than just percentage. So 2% is definitely a good way how to keep our armies in good, good shape, but there's a huge investment from previous years.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

NATO focused for several years on percentages. Is it more important, perhaps, to start looking at how that money is spent, whether it's on new weapons systems, on support for Ukrainians? Is it more soldiers in uniform?

Jan Lipavský:

I think NATO is quite good at it because they have a way how to assess how the military spending is effective. I am the Minister for NATO, so I'm not an expert on that, but I will bring the discussion back to the capability targets. So it means that if certain countries are responsible for certain tasks let's say heavy brigades the question is not how much have you spent, but the question is, do you have a heavy brigade and is it ready to fight? So that's the real answer.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, you are, as you point out, foreign affairs. Is there more that could be done diplomatically to advance the goals of NATO? We've focused so much on hard power, obviously, at this summit, but in general, is there more that could be done diplomatically?

Jan Lipavský:

I think we are doing diplomatically as much as we can. I think those peace summits and the peace panel for theodymyr Zelensky put that. Czechia, for example, is very active in the group of radiation nuclear security. So this is our niche topic, the point number one. But there is no will. Putin is not willing to really diplomatically negotiate in order to destroy Ukraine.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

I'm thinking particularly of the recent peace summit with the Swiss.

Jan Lipavský:

I think the clear message is that Vladimir Zelensky is standing with 100 world leaders and, at the same time, vladimir Putin with Kim Jong-un.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

It shows where the divisions are.

Jan Lipavský:

I think it shows where the divisions are and I think it shows that the diplomacy works, but we are not there. Of course, ukraine has a long fight ahead, because Putin is not sending any message that he will be ready to step from his imperialistic duties.

J. Alex Tarquinio:

Well, I appreciate that you have a very busy program today. Are there any final thoughts that you wanted to share?

Jan Lipavský:

I was very happy to talk to you, thank you.

Frank Radford:

And that's it for the Delegates Lounge. We'd like to thank our esteemed guests, who've graciously allowed us to share their hard-earned insights into what really matters. And then there's you, our listeners, who we hope are sufficiently edified to clamor for more of the same. Do drop in for a weekly episode on Thursday, or from time to time if we're on the road, for special events, in which case there'll be a bonus episode. Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and, if you like what you've heard, please take a moment to rate or review the show, as it helps others who share your abiding interest in world affairs to find their way to the Delegates Lounge. You can connect with us on many popular social media platforms or reach out to us directly at info@thedelegateslounge. com. We're a small team so we can't respond to every message, but we will read them. Our show this week was written and produced by the host and by yours truly, executive producer, Frank Radford. Until next time, keep calm and curious.